I would like to discuss without arguing or fighting how exactly alternative medicine and therapies work.

I would like to draw particular attention to the human immune system and its role in healing and cures.

We could start out by addressing what is the most effective alternative medicine or therapy for consistent cures available today and or past modalities so we can discuss why they were more effective than others. (Keep in mind; things have changed with modern modalities as current domestic education is governed by the FDA and other agencies who govern western and conventional medicine.

The point of this topic is to create a friendly environment to discuss actual healing and cures, whether they were past, present or future and what actually caused the healing or cures to take place.

In many cases curing is just tipping the advantage to the immune system.

I have reason to believe my wife's Lyme and Bartonella infection is finally gone. I am no longer treating her. I used frequencies to weaken and possibly destroy some of the bacteria. But, without her ability to finish off the weakened bacteria, clean up the dead material, the treatment would not have been successful.

By giving the advantage to the immune process, it was eliminated. Both the treatment, and the immune system had to be there for this particular infection. Sometimes, you can just get by with a proper immune response, other times, that is not enough.

Dan

Thank you Dan. I hope others will get involved. I have reason to believe the immune system can be controlled and even fine tuned and restored.

The fly in the ointment is what it means if I am correct. What if the frequencies you intended to use where not the frequencies that gave your wife the added boost? What if it is not the tools, gadgets and remedies used in alternative modalities doing the work but you and your wife getting it done without the technology?

Part of restoring and controlling the immune system is going to be giving credit where credit is due. As long as people are hesitant about giving the body too much credit we will not fully understand how much control we do have over our immune system.

It may come down to whether healers are willing to sacrifice business and profit in order to be more effective. If the body can do it all on its own, how do we make a living?

i felt pretty bad last nite...i think I ate something that wasn't so good....my stomach felt very uneasy....
I immediately took 3 oregano oil pills....
after about an hour or 2...I felt better....

although today...I ate a big slice of cheesecake....and about an hour later...my stomach felt a little uneasy....
ate some carbs....big bowl of whole wheat cream of wheat with some cane syrup.....felt better immediately....

discuss what happened to my body....

Great, I'm going to speak in general, not suggesting anything about you personally. First, hopefully we can all agree that oregano oil pills taste better than oregano oil. Any of us who have consumed oregano oil has a pretty good idea what Mobil 10w40 taste like.

I know I am not the only one to ever have an upset stomach or gut wrenching stomach ache go away without taking anything, sometimes they go away in minutes, half hour, hour, two hours, many hours and even days but they more times than not go away. No one needs oregano pills to clear up an upset stomach. Maybe the oregano helped, maybe it didn't. I stopped using oregano oil and pills years ago because I never noticed any solid benefit and it tasted nasty.

A person can have a reaction to cheesecake by being intolerant of lactose from the dairy. A person can have a reaction to cheesecake if they have allergies. A person can have a reaction to cheesecake if their stomach is weak from a bacteria, virus, mold, fungus or parasite that recently caused an upset stomach. A person can eat cheesecake and have an uneasy feeling an hour later that is totally unrelated to the cheesecake. It could have been the cheesecake but we need more evidence before we put the cheesecake on trial and ruin its delectable reputation.

If stress is involved, be it mental, physical, chemical or pathogenic anything can happen. Fill up the belly with some cream of wheat to absorb and or dilute whatever is causing the uneasy feeling might make it go away or it could have been that the cream of wheat and cane syrup was so wonderful that it took away the stress by being a soul food and the stress relief gave your immune system the upper hand.

More sleep, more water and less stress might have prevented it all.

Sometimes people get uneasy feelings that make them nervous which causes more stress which causes more uneasy feelings. Often people get nervous because they over analyze the uneasy feelings too much and lack confidence in their own immune response. With all the fad diets and do's and don'ts about eating this or that for this or that reason we are even more nervous, even to the point where we don't even know what to eat anymore. (Read the Omnivores Dilemma, a wonderful book about fad diets and villainizing food.) We wonder, can I eat cheese cake, can I eat bread, can I eat peanuts, can I eat meat, will it go with my blood type and can I cook my foods? All this comes from people trying to fix or control things by changing things outside their body instead of changing or controlling things inside their body.

There are unlimited factors that can cause us to feel sick to our stomach. Leaving the house and remember you left the stove burner on can cause a stomach ache. It's hard to say but in the end, confidence in the immune system and a relaxed frame of mind with some much needed rest is often more than enough to solve most mysteries. How do we get the peace of mind and confidence, well that�s part of the reason I started this topic.

I just ate a bunch of fresh garden lettuce with a dressing made with honey and rice vinegar. My stomach is churning a little, but I know it will stop once my body has processed it. I ate a lot of it because I have lettuce growing faster than we can eat it. It could be that I need more acid to process raw lettuce or it could be because of all the little bugs on the lettuce but I won�t worry about it and it will go away. No need to wash my veggies in �veggie wash�. I will not fear my lettuce or be tricked into buying �veggie wash�.

I spoke in general. You probably don�t fear lettuce any more than I but you likely know someone who washes their veggies in �veggie wash� from Wal-Mart. It�s kind of funny how society has become so afraid of little inferior organisms. Without fear they are just protein.

I am sure that there are ways to enhance the immune response. I know there are a couple of ways of doing this.

In the case of Lyme, one of the very first things it does is reduce the immune function. These bacteria know how to survive also, so they have several tricks to make sure they can live in their environments. They will alter, or avoid the mechanisms that would normally destroy them.

Some rely on huge numbers and fast reproduction to survive, but are easily dealt with by a normal immune response. Others are almost intelligent, or appear that way.

Our brain is part of our immune response also. Just as an animal will eat certain things when it is ill, we will use what is useful around us to eliminate an infection. We just have more of this ability than most creatures.

I do not think of using a gadget or a substance, drug or whatever as contrary to the natural order of things. I will avoid being exposed to pathogens, whether it is in the hospital or at the work place, and that is also part of my immune response, avoidance.

We have a pretty advanced brain for a reason, I just use it to the fullest advantage. I think of it all as part of our immune response.

Dan

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Originally Posted by D Bergy In the case of Lyme, one of the very first things it does is reduce the immune function.

Bear with me Dan. Because there are 84 views to this topic and only three of us participating, I assume we are pushing the envelope here, but that may be what is necessary if we are to learn the secrets of the human immune system and the way the body is intended to cure diseases even in the case of Lyme. Assuming you agree that the body is intended to cure Lyme.

Let�s consider this, any bacteria or pathogen can stress the immune system but to say Lyme reduces the immune functions because of its superior nature could be just a "belief" or theory. If Lyme is a bacterium, it�s pretty safe to say it is contagious. It is "believed" to be passed by ticks but hey, bacteria can be passed in other ways to. Regardless it is contagious because in theory if you are around a lot of deer ticks you might catch it, but for the sake of really understanding the power of the immune system lets not accept medicines explanation at all and start from scratch. Let�s assume Lyme is like most bacteria or even all bacteria and is contagious. It is very possible that the immune system was on the fritz when your wife came in contact with the bacteria. For sake of discussion let�s not give the bacteria too much credit yet. I want to give your wife more credit than we give the bacteria.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy These bacteria know how to survive also, so they have several tricks to make sure they can live in their environments.

Again, bear with me and I will take you where you want to go. Let�s disregard the "belief" that Lyme is tricky and stick with the fact that it is like all living organism and does what it can to survive. Let's not put our faith in explanations from a science that can't cure Lyme and assume that Lyme isn't tricky at all. Let�s assume that is a complete lack of effective immune response allowing Lyme and other bacteria to exist and reproduce and consider Lyme void of all intelligence for sake of discussion. After all we have no evidence that Lyme is intelligent. It does however make for a good excuse why it cannot be cured and you are right medical science may make it "appear" intelligent.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy Our brain is part of our immune response also. Just as an animal will eat certain things when it is ill, we will use what is useful around us to eliminate an infection. We just have more of this ability than most creatures.

Very reasonable but we could also consider that animals have instincts that haven't changed in hundreds of years, while our own instincts are almost non-existent because of our technology and daily changes. Carnivores may eat grass to settle their stomach more than fighting an infection of some kind. Animals find mineral deposits because of their instincts not because of their intellect.

I'm not trying to be argumentative; I am simply trying to keep "beliefs" in perspective. I can't prove my theories either but I still want to keep everything in perspective for sake of discussion so we can consider a healthy life without the need for oregano oil. Please bear with me, I can�t take any more oregano oil.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I do not think of using a gadget or a substance, drug or whatever as contrary to the natural order of things. I will avoid being exposed to pathogens, whether it is in the hospital or at the work place, and that is also part of my immune response, avoidance.

Modern man is the only animal that actively tries to avoid being exposed to pathogens. Many people "believe" that is part of our problem and weakness. I don't know if it is, I just know I don't worry about avoiding pathogens because of my faith or �belief� in my immune system.

I'm not against using gadgets, substance or drugs as long as they work without causing more damage. I'm all for them. I'm against claims that pathogens are superior to the human immune system. I'm also against the notion that we need technology and modern medicine to have any chance of being healthy. I am mostly against fraudulent claims of products and gadgets being said to be beneficial to our health without any evidence and worse without any consistent benefits. I don't think we are intended to be scared of a pathogen either and the only thing propagating the fear is our misunderstanding. Bear with me please. This is just my "belief".

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Originally Posted by D Bergy We have a pretty advanced brain for a reason, I just use it to the fullest advantage. I think of it all as part of our immune response.

Very true and I mean no disrespect but I don't think you or I are using our brains to the fullest advantage yet. I "believe" we will be disease free when we are using our brain to the fullest advantage which is the reason for the topic.

We have no solid evidence that Lyme or any bacteria is tricky or intelligent. We have no evidence that herpes hides from our immune system. We have no evidence that our immune system cannot defend us from any or all pathogens. We only have "beliefs" that medical science has most likely allowed us to come up with on our own through a little power of suggestion or manipulation. Really, I think if someone was to try to back these "beliefs" up with actual hard data they would be surprised to find that it might not really be science at all but a whole lot of scientific "belief" or out and out rumor. If science claims Lyme and HSV is tricky, shame on them.

Our brains and immune system are the most advanced on this planet. It is quite possible that our "beliefs" are undermining our intelligence and our immune response.

Thank you Dan for putting up with me, please take everything I say with a grain of salt because it is my �belief� that makes me �believe� that much of medicine is �belief� and not factual at all.

Everyone has a right to believe what ever they want, and I have no qualms about that. I try not to have an opinion on a subject until I have some evidence to form something that may be close to factual. Even then I never have the absolute truth. I have enough information to make my assumptions right enough to get the job done. If someone later says, You were wrong on this point or that point, that is alright with me. I accomplished my goal with less than perfect information. It only has to be correct enough to work. My goal is results, not a full understanding of the intricacies of everything involved. I will not live long enough to get all of that sorted out.

The reason I said seemed Lyme seemed to be intelligent, is because I doubt that it actually is. It just seems to be far more evasive than anything else I have treated. I had a lot going against me, so of course it was difficult and frustrating. I had an largely abandoned method of treating it, against a pathogen that didn't exist at the time it was originally developed. The technology was misunderstood and crude, and I had to work that out also when it did not work as it should. I did not fool myself when it did not work. If I did that, I would not have been able to ultimately get it to work, as it should.

It would be easy to think of it as evil, although I actually grew to admire its ability to survive. I have treated H-Pylori and it dies pretty easily. Bartonella fell within a month. Lyme out maneuvered me for seven years. That is quite impressive. It would be a much shorter process now, as I had to find a frequency for cyst form Lyme, and that had not been documented before. It will be now. I used no conventional testing, and how I arrived at that conclusion is satisfactory to me, and others can take it or leave it. The evidence is she is no longer is symptomatic at this time. I know of less than five cases of Chronic Lyme that have been cured. It just does not happen on its own, or if it has, it is unknown to me.

How do I know the frequencies did the work? I do not know anything in particular about all aspects of the treatment, but people have watched the bacteria die under a microscope using one of the frequencies I used. Just the exposure to the frequencies seems to get the Lymphatic system working faster for a short time. What are all of the elements involved? I do not know, and it does not really matter to me, because it worked. Others can disect it in the future, but the fact that it worked makes it useful now. I do not know how gravity works either, but I use it to my full advantage because it does work.

Doing nothing made it much worse in a short time. If I can repeatably beat it back and improve her condition, as I did for many years, you really have no other conclusion you can come to other than it is improving the condition. I used other methods, and they did work to a degree but then that was it. It was not keeping it down that was the problem. it was curing it completely that was the difficult part.

I do not see any evidence that gives me reason to believe that our immune system can over come anything. There may be a rare individual that has such an immune system, but that does not really help anything for the rest of us. In the case of Lyme, it could be a bioweapon to begin with, so that would make it something totally unknown to our biology, if that were the case. I do not remember any reference to such a disease fifty years ago.

It would be like our bodies ability to withstand a shot gun blast. It has no such defense to it, because it is not designed to protect against such a foreign attack.

I would be all for an all powerful immune system, but there is no evidence it exists, or ever has. I am not sure where you go from there, as it is just wishful thinking. I will agree that most evidence based medicine is nothing of the sort. It is flawed even if done without an agenda, which most of it is. But an all powerful immune system has no precedent or history of any kind, or evidence to support it.

I do not mind if you believe that it exists, or maybe you have some way of making that happen that I am not aware of, but until you can produce such a thing, it is not something I can believe in.

I am going to attempt to find out why my immune system does not even seem to be up to a normal persons ability, but that does not mean I will be able to. Even with an explanation, it does not mean that I can do anything to fix it.

I am operating on the assumption that I have a snowballs chance in hell of doing it, but I also did not have much chance of helping to cure Lyme Disease. I like complex nearly impossible puzzles, so it will keep me busy for a long time. I am sure it will be years, and may come to nothing. If you have a theory on that, I certainly will listen to it.

Dan

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I accomplished my goal with less than perfect information. It only has to be correct enough to work. My goal is results, not a full understanding of the intricacies of everything involved. I will not live long enough to get all of that sorted out.

Beautifully put and so very true yet so rare to find in people these days. Your goal is results and that is very uncommon. I assume it is because your work is on a more personal level with your wife. We need a reason to put results before profit, not that we are intentionally being less effective, it just works out that way because of "beliefs". It is easy for people to settle for mediocre results with more profit if they adhere to popular belief and believe they are doing all they can. The problem is the system they stick to is a failure. The real results are found outside the system and for people to look outside the system they must put their pride aside and seek better results at the risk of sounding crazy. This usually means turning ones back on the system to a degree. We won't ever fully understand how the immune system works but we can learn to continually improve our results and get better.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy The technology was misunderstood and crude and I had to work that out also when it did not work as it should. I did not fool myself when it did not work. If I did that, I would not have been able to ultimately get it to work, as it should.

Never settle for failure. Agreed. Lyme is most aggressive but it can be consistently cured. It takes more discipline from both you and the person you are working with. When you get your "results" naturally you must learn to duplicate them, which will come in the form of learning how to control the immune system. This is what you have done to get the results you have gotten in the past. You personally made the technique you use work. It wasn't the tools or the gadgets. You and your wife made them work. There was a time in alternative medicine where doctors made their medicine work, it is an art that is being lost because doctors are settling for mediocrity and accepting excuses. That and the modern current curriculum for alternative medicine omit the crucial training required to cure diseases.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy The evidence is she is no longer is symptomatic at this time. I know of less than five cases of Chronic Lyme that have been cured. It just does not happen on its own, or if it has, it is unknown to me.

It is unknown for a reason.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy How do I know the frequencies did the work? I do not know anything in particular about all aspects of the treatment, but people have watched the bacteria die under a microscope using one of the frequencies I used.

I question the validity of this because it is my understanding that the Lyme bacteria is almost impossible to isolate hence the reason people spend thousands of dollars and years before they finally get diagnosed with Lyme, all the good it does them because it doesn't change a thing, so they are diagnosed with Lyme, it doesn't help them cure it or even ease the signs and symptoms.

My guess the claim that someone has seen the bacteria die under a microscope is marketing.

You most likely controlled the immune response yourself to get the results. The first step in eliminating Lyme is having the desire to eliminate it combined with the "belief" that it can be eliminated then luck plays a role. We will get into this later if permitted.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I used other methods, and they did work to a degree but then that was it. It was not keeping it down that was the problem. it was curing it completely that was the difficult part.

Using alternative methods of healing typically at best spot treat a condition allowing for short term results. It still relies on the human immune system but instead of addressing the immune system itself you coax the immune system to step up with what little it has to control the condition enough to get some temporary results via placebo. My definition of placebo is just that, the act of getting a person's immunity to spot treat a condition without eliminating the whole condition. Accepting the placebo effect is a start to understanding the cure and not to be taken lightly.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I do not see any evidence that gives me reason to believe that our immune system can overcome anything.

There is the fly in the ointment right there. As long as people give healing credit to gadgets and products they will never see evidence that the immune system can overcome anything. As such they will attempt to use the gadgets and products on the next person and always wonder why it worked for one and not another. Once you give credit where credit is due you can start to focus on the immune system response and start building consistency in healing and cures. Because the �medical� method you used with your wife will never pass double or triple blind studies there is no evidence that the method was the cause of the improvement or results. The only common denominator in all healing and cures is the human immune system. Everyone has one and though it is often very fragile, it still wants to work. It just needs more attention, something completely overlooked in modern health and healing.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy In the case of Lyme, it could be a bioweapon to begin with, so that would make it something totally unknown to our biology, if that were the case.

All immune systems are designed to adapt. If they were not we wouldn't have any wildlife left. Diseases that get spread from domestic livestock reach wild herds of ungulates and it kills some of the herd but eventually the herds build immunity the same way a human is designed if we would focus on the design.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy It would be like our bodies ability to withstand a shot gun blast. It has no such defense to it, because it is not designed to protect against such a foreign attack.

Nice analogy but you came up with it because of your lack of faith in the human immune system. Once you are aware of the power of the human immune system and its ability to be controlled the analogy will not hold water. I'm here to build your faith in the human immune system.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I would be all for an all powerful immune system, but there is no evidence it exists, or ever has.

You are right there is no published evidence of an all powerful immune system but that does not mean it does not exist. The ice is now getting thinner. What if the people in charge of creating or allowing such evidence are not permitted to? You could reanalyze the "or ever has" part on your own and find some solid backing that it has existed and still does outside of modern man.

Keep in mind man was never intended to live like we live today. You cannot pack life into crowded living conditions, load up on more stress than man can endure any more than livestock or wildlife can. The result will be more than the immune system can bear. However learn to control the immune system and you can endure more extreme conditions. The other option is to force medicine to do the same with humans as it does with cattle and other livestock. We can stack cattle and pigs on top of each other and still keep them disease free for the most part with drugs; we just don't do it for humans because diseases are bad for profit in livestock but good for profit in humans. If "profit" isn't the deciding factor I don't know what else is.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I do not mind if you believe that it exists, or maybe you have some way of making that happen that I am not aware of, but until you can produce such a thing, it is not something I can believe in.

There it is, right on the table. You and I have no justifiable reason to believe anything we cannot see firsthand and experience firsthand yet our medical system we hold so dear is based on theories we all must take on faith. You must become aware of the all powerful immune system and you aren't going to get it from CNN. Once you have experienced it firsthand you no longer have to "believe" in it, you know it. Results are the only proof, not even medical journals or CNN reports will be proof if they had a mind to prove it.

Can I give you an exercise? If you are inclined research double and triple blind studies. Do it with a different mindset from the last time you might have looked into them. People are often cured and healed by methods that will not hold up to these studies, I assume you do not disagree with that. The studies pretty much prove there is no medicinal healing going on at all. See if you come up with a different conclusion than what you came up with in the past. Think of the human immune system while you research. It could be a very powerful exercise.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I am going to attempt to find out why my immune system does not even seem to be up to a normal person�s ability, but that does not mean I will be able to. Even with an explanation, it does not mean that I can do anything to fix it.

Forget what you know now, forget your belief system. Consider this topic and our discussion and stick with me and we will see if you do not have an awakening that will allow you to fix it. It could be that you have made things much more complicated than need be. Simplify, create new questions and create new doubts. You have your doubts about me but do me a favor and spread the doubts without bias.

You must admit I am asking you to do something brand new and from scratch. It's different, its change and the outcome stands to be different as well.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I am operating on the assumption that I have a snowballs chance in hell of doing it, but I also did not have much chance of helping to cure Lyme Disease. I like complex nearly impossible puzzles, so it will keep me busy for a long time. I am sure it will be years, and may come to nothing. If you have a theory on that, I certainly will listen to it.

My theories, my understanding, my methods, my results are all trumped by beliefs and bias over the internet. A person cannot control their own immune system response let alone others if they are not committed to do just that.

Controlling our immune system in comparison to modern health and healing is not complex or nearly impossible. It just seems that way when a person is medically educated instead of educated in the primitive design of the human body specifically the human immune system. Matter of fact there is no such education for curing diseases said to be incurable. It is our own responsibility for our health and healing not anyone else if we are to be cured. We are not waiting for cures from modern technology we are suppressing our primitive design by putting faith in technology.

Now I remember who you are.

If you have something to offer, that can be tested and verified, then produce it. There is no point going round and round with this hypothesis that cannot be verified by any means known to man.

If Lyme is cured all the time simply by getting the immune system to do it, then there must also be the people that have been cured, that can testify to the effectiveness of this method for that disease, or Cancer or what ever.

I assume you know who they are, and they should be more than happy to elaborate on how they did this.

It should really be that simple.

I will agree that luck plays a role. I got lucky on more than one occasion. Or maybe it was not luck, but something purposefully revealed. I do not know, but I did stumble into some important information on a seemingly unrelated subject that helped me along the way.

I also know that the more persistent you are, the luckier you get.

Dan

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Originally Posted by D Bergy If you have something to offer, that can be tested and verified, then produce it.

Maybe I am getting sensitive but that sounded a little gruff to me. "Tested and verified" what happened to "results"? Do they no longer matter? Are you suggesting that something cannot be done, be possible or be effective if it is not "tested and verified" by socially acceptable medical standards or is it CNN you expect to "test and verify"?

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Originally Posted by D Bergy There is no point going round and round with this hypothesis that cannot be verified by any means known to man.

Thank you for letting me know where I stand. Thanks for letting me know where you stand. I will keep working on getting "tested and verified", something I am doing right now here and something I do every day of the week. Should I assume I am not going to get any help from you. That saves us a lot of time. I will address some more of your comments here but, if you feel it is a waste of your time, well you are right, no point and going round and round if you are not interested.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy If Lyme is cured all the time simply by getting the immune system to do it, then there must also be the people that have been cured, that can testify to the effectiveness of this method for that disease, or Cancer or what ever.

I don't know if you have noticed but speaking of using the immune system to cure diseases can draw a lot of criticism. People cured of Lyme and other diseases have seen what happens to people who speak of such things. People cured of Lyme and other diseases have been banned from speaking of such things. The overwhelming hostility towards cures occurring from a natural immune response makes it somewhat difficult for people to share their experience in public. I'm not saying there aren't people speaking of their experience; I'm just saying I don't expect them to, mostly because it doesn't matter. You spoke of "knowing" by working through things until you "know". Well that is still the way it is with curing Lyme. You can wait until your approved "testing and verification" process happens if your approved "testing and verification" process is interested in the immune response or you can "test and verify" yourself and only then be able to "know".

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I will agree that luck plays a role. I got lucky on more than one occasion. Or maybe it was not luck, but something purposefully revealed. I do not know, but I did stumble into some important information on a seemingly unrelated subject that helped me along the way.

I do appreciate this comment. You are more than likely as smart as or smarter than me. You too can figure out how to convert "luck" into productivity. Luck plays a role, but as you said persistence plays a bigger role. Before you can dissect the luck so as to figure out what really happened you must be willing to feel like a tool for being so stupid or manipulated in the first place.

I didn't call you stupid and I don't think you are stupid but when you discover what actually happens when luck or persistence pays off you will feel a little stupid for believing what you believed that led you to the lucky realization. The question is can your pride abide feeling stupid for the sake of turning "luck" into understanding and an effective means of healing? When you learn what actually takes place it is easy to duplicate it and consistency improves.

My pride took a beating and even though discussing and sharing the resulting information related to curing diseases said to be incurable is often unappreciated, I still do not regret the beating I took discovering it and the consistency that followed.

Maybe your opinion of me will change after a little break. If it does not and you haven't gained anything from the discussion so far and if you are not interested in doing the suggested exercise above I will wait to see if anyone else is interested. I can't force you to test or verify for yourself, I can only try to help you become interested in testing and verifying for yourself hence the �round and round�.

If you want to contact CNN or if you know of anyone interested in verifying the power of the immune system give it a shot. It's a great exercise because you will learn there is no one in the health and healing industry with the power to make a difference even concerned with what the immune system can do. Try it and you to will be ridiculed just like those ridiculed for sharing their experience of being cured of Lyme through their own immune system.

I am not speaking in terms of verified by a lab or institution, just something that can be reproduced by someone who uses the method. I went largely off of anecdotal evidence, and it was good enough.

A person who has Lyme Disease that can use this method, and eliminate the disease. It would not even have to eliminate it, just a marked improvement.

To me verification and results are one and the same. It does not need anyone's official stamp of approval.

I do not expect five percent of the people who read about the method I used to eliminate Lyme, to believe that it actually occurred. In fact I am still waiting to make sure that it has been eliminated. I still put it out for anyone to use, that wants to. The rest is up to them.

I do not care if only one person benefits from the information, and the rest think it is nonsense. I have accomplished what I have indicated, I am being as factual as I am able, and it is in the process of being reproduced by others at this time. I am doing my part. I cannot make anyone believe it, but they do have the ability to test it themselves, and make up their own mind based on the results they get.

I would like something similar to test from you. I have a spot of Psoriasis on my shin that is tied to a malfunction of my immune system. Or there is another reason for it that is unknown to me. Show me a way to get rid of it, and then I have something to go by. As long as it is reasonably safe, and does not require me to send money to anyone, other than for a product of some kind, then I probably will have no objections to using it.

I have not tried to get rid of it yet, and I do know of a method or two that may do that, but maybe not. I do not know yet. I will believe your method, whatever it is, should work if it uses the immune system to correct the problem. How do I test it?

If I seem gruff it is because I remember the previous discussion on this, and in the end there never was any solution presented. Just long drawn out discussions that go around in circles, without any evidence of any kind, cures or otherwise. I have better things to do than discuss theory.

I am not an academic, and do not participate in long debates about "how many teeth are in the horses mouth". Show me the Horse, and I will count them.

I will certainly give my honest result of my Psoriasis treatment using your method. I have had it for four years, and it is not going away on its own.

If it does not work, I will appreciate the effort on your behalf. Most of what I try fails anyway. It is part of getting to something that works. If it fails on this, maybe it will work on something else. I will give something a fair shot, but I have to know what it is, to do it. I think that is reasonable enough.

Dan

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I am not speaking in terms of verified by a lab or institution, just something that can be reproduced by someone who uses the method. I went largely off of anecdotal evidence, and it was good enough.

Dan, I am very relieved that you are not asking for verification by lab or institution. I am working on that kind of verification, but have been very unsuccessful. I've been successful in where it counts. Patience is a virtue. It took me 15 years to come to understand what I "know" now. It took 15 years for me to develop consistency. I understand you are human and you want to know how to cure Lyme and Psoriasis with consistency right now, but it won't work until you are in the proper mindset. The mindset is the medicine, not products or gadgets and I am not talking about spiritualism. I don't want to drag things out any more than you want to put off being consistent. I would rather not teach you unless it is ALL THE WAY.

I'm also relieved that you are not trying to be gruff. I appreciate that. I will try to speed things up. It will help if you continue your efforts to remain unbiased.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy A person who has Lyme Disease that can use this method, and eliminate the disease. It would not even have to eliminate it, just a marked improvement.

Great, Lyme Disease can always be cured but if someone has been suffering for many years especially if they are at a point where they no longer have good days they are likely only going to have "marked" improvement which is why there is an urgency to what I am trying to do here. Take a person who is still having good days with Lyme and you can give them a full recovery and their life back as if they never had Lyme. I'm sure you can understand permanent damage.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I do not expect five percent of the people who read about the method I used to eliminate Lyme, to believe that it actually occurred. In fact I am still waiting to make sure that it has been eliminated. I still put it out for anyone to use, that wants to. The rest is up to them.

Solid wisdom and I have a client who is right now putting his cure under the stress test. He is mountain biking, off road motor cycling and beating himself up every way he can to test and he will be a spokes person for curing Lyme Disease. He still had the occasional good days when I worked with him. It doesn't matter how miserable a person is they can eliminate the bacteria but it needs to be done before damage is permanent.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I would like something similar to test from you. I have a spot of Psoriasis on my shin that is tied to a malfunction of my immune system. Or there is another reason for it that is unknown to me. Show me a way to get rid of it, and then I have something to go by. As long as it is reasonably safe, and does not require me to send money to anyone, other than for a product of some kind, then I probably will have no objections to using it.

Are you aware that psoriasis is a fungal disease and as such is an autoimmune disease? You will have to address your autoimmune to cure it but you may be able to eliminate the rash with the right fungicide. I have never known oregano oil to work. I have not found any "natural" remedies that work other than the possibility of salts or baking soda. It is my opinion that those who have had success using oils and herbal fungal products either cycled through the fungus using their immune system or the rash ran its course. Sometimes all it takes for an effective healing is a relaxing vacation or a lifestyle change that removes stress and allows for more sleep.

I don't sell products. Try using salt two or three times a day and see if there is an improvement. Use wet salt and after it dries apply olive or coconut oil to keep it moist and from cracking. If you do not notice an improvement with salt in a few days try baking soda as a paste and the oil for a few days. If no improvement you may have to buy and try some over the counter fungicides. Because psoriasis is a deep tissue infection it may take weeks to eliminate it completely when you find the right fungicide that starts showing improvement. I would follow through with the fungicide long after the rash is gone. You might have to try 20 fungicides before you find the right active ingredient. When you find the right one, typically you see a difference in a few days.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I have not tried to get rid of it yet, and I do know of a method or two that may do that, but maybe not. I do not know yet. I will believe your method, whatever it is, should work if it uses the immune system to correct the problem. How do I test it?

The proper course of action would be to reset your autoimmune. You can do this by using old fashioned Total Body Modification. I say old fashioned because you will have to use the original version by someone who is trained in resetting the autoimmune. You cannot learn TBM from a book or video. You have to learn it from someone in person who can reset the autoimmune. If someone is using old fashioned TBM they can cure allergies in less than a week. If they can't they can't help you. I don't know of anyone I can to refer you to. I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy If I seem gruff it is because I remember the previous discussion on this, and in the end there never was any solution presented. Just long drawn out discussions that go around in circles, without any evidence of any kind, cures or otherwise. I have better things to do than discuss theory.

I don't remember having a discussion with you unless you had a different user name. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I don't recall it. For the same reason you would need to meet with an old fashioned TBM practitioner to learn to reset you autoimmune you would need to meet with me to learn how to set it through my methods. I'm sorry, what I do is not a miracle pill, gadget, video or book. It is information passed from one person to the next face to face. The information is not in the form of words.

If you are familiar with TBM you will know that resetting the autoimmune requires resetting the Sugar Mode. You and I know there is no such thing as a "Sugar Mode" but it still has to be reset for TBM to work. Even though there is no such thing as a "sugar mode" there is a very effective process behind "setting it" that will correct the autoimmune when done right. This takes us to the meat of this discussion. It is the process behind the treatments in alternative medicine that works and that process is a personal communication (not in words) used to guide the body in restoring its functions. The process can only be relayed in person if consistency is desired. Otherwise the process is left to chance or luck and I cannot afford to be less than consistent because of my plans.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I am not an academic, and do not participate in long debates about "how many teeth are in the horse�s mouth". Show me the Horse, and I will count them.

Again sound wisdom and your only chance for being consistent. If I lived next door I would hold the horse�s mouth open for you and show you the results. I'm here and you are there. Right now all we have is this discussion. Learning to control the immune system cannot be done through technology. It can only be done the same way it was done a hundred years ago and will be done a hundred years from now. Talking about it, showing pictures of it isn't going to get it done. I will hold the horse�s mouth open for you free of charge. I travel a lot, if you wish to avoid spending any money on something you are unsure of because of travel I might be able to see you in your home town and give you your chance. Otherwise you are left to figuring it all out in the same manner I used, which of course is what you are doing now. It took me 15 years. You might be almost there now in which case this discussion might give you what you need to figure it out on your own.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy I will certainly give my honest result of my Psoriasis treatment using your method. I have had it for four years, and it is not going away on its own.

Curing psoriasis is an ideal way of proving what I do. Maybe we visited on a psoriasis topic before? If so, maybe you already tried the fungicides with no benefit? If you are of mind to learn how to cure psoriasis be aware that you too will only be able to help people in person. There will be nothing to market through the mail or DVDs and such. You will get a taste of what you are giving me here. I'm sure you can handle it.

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Originally Posted by D Bergy If it does not work, I will appreciate the effort on your behalf. Most of what I try fails anyway. It is part of getting to something that works. If it fails on this, maybe it will work on something else. I will give something a fair shot, but I have to know what it is, to do it. I think that is reasonable enough.

I understand you wanting to know what it is. That is what this thread is about. Imagine a most effective and consistent homeopath or naturopath, one who gets it done 100% of the time. What I do is the exact same thing they do when they cure something without the use of medicine, remedies or gadgets. What I do is the process behind the medicine, remedies and gadgets. It can�t be explained any better than that. I can�t explain it but I can do it which is what is important.

If you want to be a consistent healer you have two choices, do it the same way I did and devote years to trial and error without ever giving up which sounds like what you are doing now or find someone who is already consistent and work directly with them.

If you work with someone who studied under the number 1 person you are going to get a slightly watered down version most likely. You should become very effective but not as effective as you could be. This is what has happened to alternative medicine. Many of the greatest healers have fallen victim to marketing and gimmicks and have also suffered in regards to consistency. I've seen it happen. While I was removing medicine, tools, gadgets and supplements and developing consistency they were adding medicine, tools, gadgets and supplement to the point where they have become virtually useless. That is the destruction of marketing.

Alternative medicine is too far removed from the original design to be consistent anymore.

While I am free from discussing specific issues lets break down some myths.

Myth #1) The human immune system is weak and inferior in comparison to immune systems outside of the human race.

Myth #2) There are certain bacteria, viruses and other pathogens that can hide from the human immune system.

Myth #3) Certain diseases are genetic, caused by poor genes.

Myth #4) The body attacks itself or creates harmful cells that attack itself.

Myth #5) A person cannot control their immune response.

When understanding Myth 1, you need to be willing to accept the fact that you have been educated to be unhealthy. You have been raised to disregard your immune system. You wouldn't know how to use the potty or tie your shoe if you hadn't been educated to do so. Until this discussion you really haven't given your immune system much consideration except back when you were in the third grade when you were told your immune system is for killing bacteria and viruses.

Until this discussion you have accepted popular "belief" and believe that your immune system has failed and all you can do is try to give it the right food, the right supplement or the right treatment to boost it because this is what you have been taught. Obviously what we are taught does not work. You don�t need to boost it you need to use it.

Before you can willingly learn about your immune system naturally you need a reason and the reason is this, your immune system is not inferior. You have gotten up each day for your whole life not only disregarding it completely but also have been physically and mentally beating it up because that is what you were taught.

When understanding Myth #2, you need to understand the purpose of a "good" excuse. When you are told you cannot cure a itty bitty bacteria or virus with your immune system you always ask why and some schmuck in a white coat who doesn't know any better tells you the bacteria or virus is tricky and it hides from our inferior immune system and BAM we disregard our immune system from that point on and treat it like it is our appendix, it's just there but has no real function according to science that is. Really, how silly is to try to visualize viruses and bacteria playing hide and go seek with the immune system? You have to feel kind of silly if you bought into that excuse. They don't hide from your immune system. You just refuse to go after them because that is how you are taught.

When understanding Myth #3, there are no genetic diseases. If that were the case all life form would cease to exist. That would be considered devolving instead of evolving. Being labeled a genetic disease is another deadly excuse for why medicine does not cure something and once you believe the excuse you are stuck with the consequences. Diseases are pathogenic. The ones said to be genetic are often fungal in nature, fungus being the most deadly pathogen on the planet yet virtually ignored by science and medicine so as to lump all fungal diseases into a myth category called "genetic diseases".

When understanding Myth #4, you have to give yourself more credit or you will be sick and diseased. Your body does not attack itself. How gullible are we? We have been convinced our immune system cannot attack a virus but by God it will attack us while producing deadly cells by the zillions. How pitiful can we become?.

When understanding Myth #5, Right, this one isn't always a myth, you can't control your immune response yet because you likely believe in one or more of the myths above and have given up on your immune system long ago so naturally you can't control a discarded immune system. Medicine is not teaching it so in theory it must not be possible. Not even natural medicine is teaching it. If it can�t be done through natural or western medicine, it must not be possible. Wrong, Alternative medicine verses Western medicine is just like Republicans verses Democrats, both are equally wrong. Alternative medicine is not more superior to western medicine by a long shot because western medicine has trauma medicine and pain killers. But both ignore the immune system and alternative medicine is the worst because it uses the immune system and then gives a placebo medicine the credit.

Technically humans are said to have evolved more than any creature or life form on the planet but when it comes to our health and healing we have devolved while all other life form evolves. The only difference between us and all the animals who do not suffer from cancer is our education. We are educated to be sick. That is the only thing preventing you from controlling your immune responses. No one has taught you how to guide or control your immune system. Why hasn�t anyone figured it out other than me? Who says no one else has figured it out? Why isn�t this valuable information shared? Well clearly some people do not want it shared and it is not my place to explain to you why people don�t want it shared.

I understand your point goodsamaritan.. and you are right. We do not give our body/immune systems enough credit.. It truly is an incredible system that is very powerful. However I think its foolish to underestimate other living organisms abilities. They are also powerful and have had millions of years to evolve.

There definitely needs to be a bigger role of mental attitude in treating disease.. and people are too pessimistic about there health. Your thoughts, feelings can cure you. I believe that. It's also true that all of us have been brainwashed by the western medical establishment.. even us "health conscious" people.

But still.. there is another side to the argument. Like you said, part of our intelligence/immunity is our ability to use our intellect to find new ways to help our bodys heal. That is part of your immune system. People have been doing that for thousands of years.. long before western civilization even existed. Were those people brainwashed? I dont think so. What about shamans in the rain forest using herbs etc. ?

I think the goal should always be to assist your body in doing what it needs to do. You can never use something in place of your natural immune system (antibiotics etc.) But I think there is great value in using specific natural remedies to aid your body and make its job easier.. It's not to say it couldn't do it on its own.. but why not help it? Our bodies need our help.

How long would you survive if you ate McDonalds everyday? or if you stopped eating? How long would your almighty immune system last then?