Hi there,

I have used Chinese Medicine for years and have utilized a couple of acupuncturists in the past. Right now I'm going it alone due to not being able to afford an acu right now, and have been playing around with different formulas. I have a multitude of deficiency patterns and have found what use to work doesn't work anymore for the same symptoms.

What I did find that helped was a stasis formula (Shen Tong Zhu Yu Wan). Which makes perfect sense to me because I do have a mild genetic clotting disorder. I feel as though the reason I've developed several health issues and a general pain syndrome is due to time (that age reduces general flow through arteries) plus the clotting disorder.

So my question is, can stasis formulas be used long term (as in forever) and what would be a safe one in that case? I am taking an extremely low dose and it is working effectively (just 1 teapill 2x a day as opposed to recommended 5-7 pills 3x day). I have found I can't use other things for blood thinning such as aspirin, resveratrol, fish oil, etc. - they all increase joint pain substantially. This is the only thing that reduces pain instead of increases it.

Thanks for any help

I wonder if we have anyone here expert enough in chinese medicine to answer your questions.

What I would be looking at is nattokinase... it is an enzyme formula that keeps blood from clotting as in what happens when strokes or deep thromi happen. It has strong anti inflammatory properties. Originally nattokinase came from Japanese medicine, I believe, but perhaps chineses medicine

Pycogenol is another plant medicine that reduces stasis in the circulation. Many studies have been done to document its effectiveness in airline piolits who tend towards this problem

__________________

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I have used nattokinase in the past and had a good response to it. But now I can't take it on a daily basis because eventually it creates more problems than I started with. I always end up getting sick or end up in more pain than I was. I have a very strange & overly sensitive system. The only thing I've been able to explain my reaction to it is that I had the clotting disorder without knowing it all my life, and perhaps alot of pathogens were walled up by fibrous tissue and are released when I take certain blood thinning substances.

I've used Pycogenol in the past, but before I had all these problems (and reactions). I may try it again.

Another aspect of this is that I can only take herbs & remedies in very small doses to avoid a negative reaction. Still haven't figured out if that's a good or bad thing.

I'm very happy with how the stasis formula has helped so many issues that nothing else has been able to, but the one thing I am worried about is that it seems it's worsening my yin deficiency (getting serious night sweats), so I started taking Eight Flavor Rehmannia again. Which I have not been able to take because it seems to trigger carbuncles. And the Rehmannia doesn't seem to be working fast like it did in the past.

My issues are so complicated, I may have to break down and go to an acu and get a custom formula. I have never had much success with the actually needling - it was always the herbs that helped.

Thanks for your input.

One other thing I wanted to add. I have a thyroid and vocal nodule. I noticed after taking the stasis formula my singing voice improved and I could hit high notes again. I guess there's always the possibility that the breakdown of the thyroid nodule is causing some transient night sweats. I'm due for some bloodwork, so I guess I'll find out if anything is going on with the thyroid.

I had benign thryoid nodules, sometimes called cysts, that went away with Lugol's iodine supplementation.

I suggest that if you want to continue on this forumula long term that you save up for one more visit to an OMD to get advice on these herbs. Is there no reference book to look them up individually to see how they are used?

Night sweats to me indicate a pathogen of some sort. Sometimes night sweats indicate ameoba issues or other pathogen. Your body while at rest mounts a defense and sweats occur.

Being very sensitive to medicines is a difficult thing but I generally think that such sensitivity is due to imbalance and to detox reactions...

Work by boosting your system with common supplements like c, b's, colostrum, iodine in small amounts to start like 5mg daily, Jarrow Whey, D3, and some naturally fermented foods. See Sally Fallons Book https://www.amazon.com/Nourishing-Tra.../dp/0967089735

Thanks Arrow. It's interesting that you mentioned all of those supplements - I've actually used all of them. Some with really bad results:

Colostrum: After taking, for whatever reason this was the beginning of a multitude of health issues. I had a nasty response and was literally in bed for 6 mos. I never went to a doctor about it (I had dr. burnout - and adrenal burnout from fertility treatment).

Nattokinase: I used this intermittently for awhile, but it's too harsh for me - I ended up feeling more pain with this as well. Now when I take it, it makes me very foggy headed & a slight tingling in my head, and that makes me nervous. I do take Vit K-2 from natto on a regular basis however.

Iodine - I had worsening symptoms with my thyroid nodule with an MRI iodine injection. Then I tried painting on some iodine and had the same thing happen. Symptoms very much like a thyroid storm.

I do the jarrow whey (same brand you mentioned), and other supplements.

But since I last posted, I cut out the 8 Flavor Rhemannia and am doing a few stasis teapills, Fo-Ti and Tocotrienols (Jarrows Toco-Sorb) which is a mixture of Vit. E. & Tocotrienols. I had stopped E a long time ago because of reports it was detrimental to health. I figured I'd give this a try because it is supposedly a safer way to take Vit E.

I believe the 8 Flavor was making me sweat more. Don't know why. Maybe someone with a chinese medical background can chime in on whether Kidney Yang def. can also cause night sweats?

I also feel better than I have in a long time! And I seem to be reversing my sensitivity to dosage. Perhaps the stasis formula is helping break up stagnation in the liver (which I've had a problem with for a long time - gallbladder issues triggering specifically). I've just never been able to accomplish a liver detox without serious side effects, or reverting back where I was.

Hi, Snowangel. While I am no expert on TCM, I do know that every person is a unique admixture of countless characteristics. Maybe if one is basically well constituted from birth, then even if quite ill they can benefit from a non-custom, standard formula, tolerating some of the herbs that may not be right for them because the rest of the formula is correct for their pattern. Maybe you are not in this category? By the way, not all doctors of TCM are equal, as you likely know. Some are rather awful in my experience. Outright shysters, liars and greedy for money.

About worsening yin deficiency from taking the 8 Flavor Pills, an article I read about the Shen Tong Zhu Yu formula states that "Tao Ren, Dang Gui, and Niu Xi also nourish the blood and yin and, therefore, help prevent damage to the blood and yin by the quickening and attacking ingredients." So I guess these ingredients weren't able to overcome certain herbs in the 8 Flavor.

Just out of curiosity, does the version of Shen Tong Zhu Yu Wan you are taking include Flying Squirrel Feces? I had heard that that ingredient was banned here by some regulatory agency even though it is pasteurized or something. The Chinese is "wu ling zhi".

Also, I found an article which states, among much else,

"Gunter will also introduce the fascinating topic of the Fire Spirit (Huo Shen) school. Gunter first met Wu Sheng-Yuan, the son of the famous Fire Spirit School protagonist Wu Pei-Heng (“Dr Fu Zi”) in 1994, which sparked his interest in the Fire School. Based on the classics with its principle of restoring yin by tonifying yang, the Fire Spirit School has been extraordinarily successful with those cases that orthodox practitioners had failed to crack. Gunter’s case studies are written with suspense and read like crime stories."

Best to you in your search for good health!

I misunderstood the cause of your worsening yin deficiency. I'm sorry.

some studies in vitamin e have showed bad effect but of course they used not a natural product and only the alpha form... very stupid to do and they misaligned many people who could benefit from the correct vitamin e formula which is mixed tocotrenols.. gamma and alpha. Jarrow is a good product.

It is so curious that you suffered from colostrum... mothers milk. I have never heard of this.

Sensitive people like you are very hard for me.. I just dont have enough answers.

Other things that I generally advise is MMS which may be way difficult for you.
You may want to look at UVB blood therapy, one to 5 sessions over several weeks may give you a boost. This is exposing the blood directly to ultraviolet light. In so many historical cases it has helped when the doctor didnt know what to do. It really helps to heal the blood cells and of course this boost will be taken directly to the liver. I have been surprised at how many alternative docs now do this. It is rapidly returning to the ranks of the effective therapy that it truely is... yet you still might have to look pretty hard to find a doc. Sessions generally cost 125 to 150.

Aside from the more extreme therapies you might benefit from a high ORAC greens product daily, I use Greens 8000. Sometimes with highly sensitive people just approaching through nutrition is a good course. But with you I am sure there is a pathogen involved so this is why I mention colostrum, mms , UVB.

do consider the pycogenol again. also think about taking it with a low dose of niacin. Just enough to make you slightly flush. this will help to carry it deep into the tissues.

I assume the stasis is primarily in your legs.... you never did explain your complaint much but you do talk about the liver a lot. Liver is involved in most disease, from toxicity or under or over activity. Do you have cardiac symptoms? Do you have blilary stasis, liver stasis? Lymphatic stasis, blood or circulatory stasis?

Inverse posture is helpful to some people, using a slant board and if there is leg swelling above the knee ted hose, never below the knee.

Instead of nattokinase consider Serrapeptase. They have a similar action but natto focuses more on preventing clots. www.serrapeptase.info I use Doctors Best from Iherb. Start at a low dose, only one pill a day and increase as tolerated. If you can get up to 80,000 IU 3 x day that will do much for your liver and your vascular system. Do it for about 3 months then see what you think.

I just reviewed my notes on UVB and it has shown effective in all kinds of vascular disorders, sclerotic vessels, a decrese in plasma viscosity, venous ulcers,

It will increase catalase, superoxide dismutase (SOD), and glutathione. German studies list about 40 positive changes in the blood cells and overall total physiology, circulation, glucose levels, volume of ciruclation, lowering of fibrin, increase of white blood cells, as well as health of red and white blood cells, bactericidal capacity of blood, and modulation of immune status




What Samia wrote.... thats all chinese to me