Slippery Slope?

Gnomenclature

\r\n \r\n Apparently this happens around every 150 years or so, and Greenland was due for such a melt. So climatologists are being conservative in their interpretations, which is normal for that area of study anyway. Mapping the highest % melt in summer by year should reveal a trend and that would be more reliable. It could be a bit of a blip due to la nina lurking out in the Pacific this year, which gives us warmer air in N. America and on into Greenland.
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\nBut I have my suspicions, for all that.
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\nThe thing I find most telling, and the easiest to explain, was that in 1996 the USDA changed the agricultural zones and shifted them all north. I used to be in ag zone 7 and now I\'m in 8. I live in Atlanta, and now my ag zone is what used to be in Macon, which is quite some distance south of me. There are places in town in Atlanta where I can plant windmill palms now and they\'ll survive if they\'re sited properly. Well -' + '- that never happened before.
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\nAlso, being tied into the gardening crowd, I hear nothing from the really old-timer natives but "we have never seen this weed show up this far north before." If our soil weren\'t Piedmont clay I\'d be expecting to start having problems with mole crickets too. It\'s warm enough now.\r\n

jfh

\r\n \r\n Recently, tropical plankton has been found in the Arctic waters.
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\nhttps://www.earth.columbia.edu/articles/view/2993
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\r\n \r\n �All the evidence is that this isn�t necessarily immediate evidence of global warming of the ocean,� said Anderson. Lead author Kjell Bj�rklund, of the University of Oslo Natural History Museum said of the invaders, �This doesn�t happen continuously�but it happens.�
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\nThat said, oceanographers have noted that such pulses seem to be coming more often and penetrating further��exactly what one would expect from global warming,� said Rainer Froese, an oceanographer at the Helmholtz Centre for Ocean Research who tracks fish global populations. Could this be the start of a switch in currents predicted by climate models?\r\n \r\n

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knightofalbion

\r\n \r\n Another polar ice story cropped up on the BBC \'Science and Environment\' website last night
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\nhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18959399\r\n

Solstice Goat

\r\n \r\n The most compelling evidence to me isn\'t the MSM, it is the tape measure;

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\r\n \r\n But, on June 30, 1988, nearly 21 years ago, a group from Middleboro, Kentucky, using an �icescope� � a radar device able to see beneath the surface � detected large object under the ice big enough to be a B-17!
\n To make this long story a bit shorter, they pumped hot water through what they called a "super gopher tube" melting a tunnel down to the planes.
\n Originally, the group had calculated that these World War II planes were buried under about 40 feet of ice. Instead, their tunnel went straight down an incredible 268 feet � twenty-seven stories!"
\n Folks, as Bob Felix pointed out, this huge ice buildup occurred in just 46 years, at an astounding rate of nearly six feet per year.
\n As I mentioned last week, the Antarctic Ice Sheet is growing faster than we�re ever been led to believe. In fact, the Old Byrd Weather Station has been crushed in recent years by more than 50 feet of ice.
\n The original Syple and South Pole stations are likewise buried under the ice. In fact, a new South Pole station was built on top of the one that was buried. I again rest my case...global ice, on the whole, is EXPANDING, not CONTRACTING.\r\n \r\n

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\nhttps://www.longrangeweather.com/Arti...ndIceSheet.htm
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\nSo, who should we believe? Some politician named Al who consumes more natural resources than everyone on the board combined, and stands to make a fortune taxing your gas and trading carbon credits, or expeditions with tape measures?
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\nFurthermore, why can a large government fuel tax that raises the cost of gasoline save the planet when big, greedy corporations that gouge us at the pumps cannot?
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\nSeriously, why is it the pocket that the cash goes into makes such a huge difference?\r\n

knightofalbion

\r\n \r\n The receding ice making the North-West Passage and North-East Passage passable for shipping and huge masses of ice calfing off the Antarctic at regular intervals would suggest it\'s no hoax....\r\n

Solstice Goat

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\r\n Originally Posted by knightofalbion\r\n

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The receding ice making the North-West Passage and North-East Passage passable for shipping and huge masses of ice calfing off the Antarctic at regular intervals would suggest it\'s no hoax....

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Ice falling off glaciers is a very natural occurrence during non ice age periods. When glaciers stop their movement is when another ice age is occurring.
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\nSeveral things we know to be fact:
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\nThe earth has been much colder than it is now. 10,000 years ago North America was under ice. It has been warming for at least 2,000 years since.
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\nThe earth has been much warmer than it is right now. Fossils of creatures typically associated African savanna have been found in East Anglia.
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\r\n \r\n The \'West Runton Freshwater Bed\' is a five-foot thick layer of organic-rich mud deposited by a medium sized river about six hundred thousand (600,000) to seven hundred thousand years ago, long before the beginning of the Ice Ages. This deposit, just east of West Runton on the North Norfolk coast, is full of all sorts of fossils. These range from thousands of small snail shells, twigs and small mammal bones, through medium sized deer, horse and rhino bones to the huge bones of the elephants, which roamed our country in herds back then. There have been many species of elephant living in England over the last few millions of years. The West Runton Elephant, living here 6-700,000 years ago, is of the species Mammuthus trogontherii.\r\n \r\n

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https://www.museums.norfolk.gov.uk/Re...hant/index.htm
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\r\n \r\n This was the largest species of elephant that has ever lived, and the largest animal ever to have lived on land except for the very biggest dinosaurs. Standing four metres high at its shoulder, it would have weighed about ten tons � twice the weight of any male African elephant you would find today. It is the largest elephant skeleton ever found and is the oldest elephant skeleton to have been found in the UK (some individual bones or teeth from elsewhere are older, but none make even a partial skeleton). The West Runton Elephant skeleton is also the best of this species ever to have been found. Previously the best were two partial skeletons, one in Germany and the other in Russia, both only about 10-15% complete. The West Runton Elephant skeleton is about 85% complete.\r\n \r\n

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So, if you want to believe climate computer models, go ahead. If you want to believe journalists fed with info from politicians that stand to rake in HUGE profits by setting up carbon trading exchanges, go ahead.
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\nJust remember, these politicians are the same ones that use your hard earned wages to bail out foolish millionaires, wage countless, pointless wars on humanity, walk lockstep with Monsanto, subsidize the poisoning of your tap water with fluorine, etc, etc.
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\nHeck, maybe contrary to all the evil they do and all the evidence to the contrary, they\'re right on this and deserve more of your wages.

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knightofalbion

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\r\n Originally Posted by Solstice Goat\r\n

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Ice falling off glaciers is a very natural occurrence during non ice age periods. When glaciers stop their movement is when another ice age is occurring.
\n
\nSeveral things we know to be fact:
\n
\nThe earth has been much colder than it is now. 10,000 years ago North America was under ice. It has been warming for at least 2,000 years since.
\n
\nThe earth has been much warmer than it is right now. Fossils of creatures typically associated African savanna have been found in East Anglia.
\n
\nhttps://www.museums.norfolk.gov.uk/Re...hant/index.htm
\n
\n
\n
\n
\nSo, if you want to believe climate computer models, go ahead. If you want to believe journalists fed with info from politicians that stand to rake in HUGE profits by setting up carbon trading exchanges, go ahead.
\n
\nJust remember, these politicians are the same ones that use your hard earned wages to bail out foolish millionaires, wage countless, pointless wars on humanity, walk lockstep with Monsanto, subsidize the poisoning of your tap water with fluorine, etc, etc.
\n
\nHeck, maybe contrary to all the evil they do and all the evidence to the contrary, they\'re right on this and deserve more of your wages.

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On your last point, parasites trying to make financial capital out of all this does not detract from the gravity of the situation.
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\nI forget the gentleman\'s name, but only a few weeks ago a leading and long-standing denier of climate change, came out and publicly declared that the figures for climate change do stack up, and are chiefly due to human activity.
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\nI\'d say you were perfectly right about higher and lower temperture fluctuations in times past. Events that if repeated, even at a lesser level, would impact on human civilization to the point that life in huge swathes of the world would become unsustainable.\r\n

Solstice Goat

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\r\n Originally Posted by knightofalbion\r\n

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On your last point, parasites trying to make financial capital out of all this does not detract from the gravity of the situation.
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\nI forget the gentleman\'s name, but only a few weeks ago a leading and long-standing denier of climate change, came out and publicly declared that the figures for climate change do stack up, and are chiefly due to human activity.
\n
\nI\'d say you were perfectly right about higher and lower temperture fluctuations in times past. Events that if repeated, even at a lesser level, would impact on human civilization to the point that life in huge swathes of the world would become unsustainable.

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\nGoogle his name, I\'m interested in who he is, otherwise its hearsay. A bimbo behind a desk with a copy of script during a per-ordaned time by The Ministry of Information doesn\'t cut it for me either. The list of fraudsters in this affair is lengthy.
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\r\n \r\n People who have been following the climate debate closely know that one of the most controversial and key elements of the controversy is the so-called �hockey stick� � a graph of supposed global temperature over the past centuries that ostensibly shows a dramatic increase in average temperature in the last century or so (the upward swoop of the graph at that point is the business end of the stick, with regard to the puck). It vaulted its inventor, Michael Mann of Penn State University, to climate stardom, with associated acclaim and government grants, when he first presented it in the late �90s. It was the visual basis of much of the hysteria in recent years, from Al Gore�s Oscar-winning crockumentary to bogus reports from the UN�s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).
\n Unfortunately for those promoting the theory (and the potentially economically catastrophic policy recommendations supposedly supported by it), recent events indicate that the last basis of scientific support for the hockey stick may be crumbling. But to understand this, a little background is necessary.\r\n \r\n

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https://pjmedia.com/blog/the-death-of-the-hockey-stick/
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\nhttps://www.nationalreview.com/corner...key-mark-steyn
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\nI fully realize your mind is made up and will not change. I post this material for the skeptics who realize how much bogus info gets published by shills hoping to make a buck off the collectivist hordes.
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\r\n \r\n (2/27/07 - NASHVILLE, TN) -' + '- Back home in Tennessee, safely ensconced in his suburban Nashville home, Vice President Al Gore is no doubt basking in the Oscar awarded to "An Inconvenient Truth," the documentary he inspired and in which he starred. But a local free-market think tank is trying to make that very home emblematic of what it deems Gore\'s environmental hypocrisy.
\n Armed with Gore\'s utility bills for the last two years, the Tennessee Center for Policy Research charged Monday that the gas and electric bills for the former vice president\'s 20-room home and pool house devoured nearly 221,000 kilowatt-hours in 2006, more than 20 times the national average of 10,656 kilowatt-hours.
\n "If this were any other person with $30,000-a-year in utility bills, I wouldn\'t care," says the Center\'s 27-year-old president, Drew Johnson. "But he tells other people how to live and he\'s not following his own rules."\r\n \r\n

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https://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...rld&id=5072659
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\nAl Gore, certainly no Mother Theresa, Gandhi, or Dali Lama, is he?\r\n

knightofalbion

\r\n \r\n [QUOTE=Solstice Goat;203545] Google his name, I\'m interested in who he is, otherwise its hearsay.[QUOTE]
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\nhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19047501
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\nhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15373071\r\n

Solstice Goat

\r\n \r\n 56deg last night in the PNW. That\'s low, even for lat47. In for another cold winter! Getting good use out of the cross country skis!

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\nSeriously, if all the Global Warming; Ahhh, errr, I mean Climate Change advocates were squeaky clean, I\'d still have to question their theory when place against a million years of waxing and waning glacial data.
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\nThis is super cool (no pun intended) stuff. The US lacks all the really awesome human history, like England and Europe, but we do have some really interesting natural history.
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\nI present, the Lake Missoula theory.....................
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\r\n \r\n The Short Story
\n About 12,000 years ago, the valleys of western Montana lay beneath a lake nearly 2,000 feet deep. Glacial Lake Missoula formed as the Cordilleran Ice Sheet dammed the Clark Fork River just as it entered Idaho. The rising water behind the glacial dam weakened it until water burst through in a catastrophic flood that raced across Idaho, Oregon, and Washington toward the Pacific Ocean. Thundering waves and chunks of ice tore away soils and mountainsides, deposited giant ripple marks, created the scablands of eastern Washington and carved the Columbia River Gorge. Over the course of centuries, Glacial Lake Missoula filled and emptied in repeated cycles, leaving its story embedded in the land.
\n Flood Facts:
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The ice dam was over 2000 feet tall.
Glacial Lake Missoula was as big as Lakes Erie and Ontario combined.
The flood waters ran with the force equal to 60 Amazon Rivers.
Car-sized boulders embedded in ice floated some 500 miles; they can still be seen today!

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https://www.glaciallakemissoula.org/\r\n

Solstice Goat

\r\n \r\n The atmosphere is primarily composed of nitrogen (78 percent), oxygen (21 percent), argon (0.93 percent), and CO2 (0.04 percent). Many other gases are present in trace amounts. The lower atmosphere also contains varying amounts of water vapor, up to four percent by volume.
\n Nitrogen and oxygen are not greenhouse gases and have no warming influence. The greenhouse gases included in the Kyoto Protocol are each rated for warming potency. CO2, the warming gas that has activated Al Gore, has low warming potency, but its relatively high concentration makes it responsible for 72 percent of Kyoto warming. Methane (CH4, a.k.a. natural gas) is 21 times more potent than CO2, but because of its low concentration, it contributes only seven percent of that warming. Nitrous oxide (N2O), mostly of nature\'s creation, is 310 times more potent than CO2. Again, low concentration keeps its warming effect down to 19 percent.
\n Now for an inconvenient truth about CO2 sources — nature generates about 30 times as much of it as does man. Yet the warming worriers are unconcerned about nature\'s outpouring. They — and Al Gore — are alarmed only about anthropogenic CO2, that 3.2 percent caused by humans But this finger-pointing ignores yet another inconvenient truth about CO2. In fact, it\'s a minor contributor to the greenhouse effect when water vapor is taken into consideration. All the greenhouse gases together, including CO2 and methane, produce less than two percent of the greenhouse effect, according to Richard S. Lindzen of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Lindzen, by the way, is described by one source as "the most renowned climatologist in all the world." When water vapor is put in that perspective, then anthropogenic CO2 produces less than 0.1 of one percent of the greenhouse effect.
\n If everyone knows that water vapor is the dominant greenhouse gas, why do Al Gore and so many others focus on CO2? Call it the politics of the possible. Water vapor is almost entirely natural. It\'s beyond the reach of man\'s screwdriver. But when the delegates of 189 countries met at Kyoto in December 1997 to discuss global climate change, they could hardly vote to do nothing. So instead, they agreed that the developed countries of the world would reduce emissions of six man-made greenhouse gases. At the top of the list is CO2, a trivial influence on global warming compared with water vapor, but unquestionably man\'s largest contribution.\r\n

knightofalbion · � #1 � 07-26-2012, 02:23 AM

Dramatic increase in Greenland ice sheet melt

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18978483

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