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† #16
Old 06-29-2010, 08:47 AM
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Default Medical Science, Belief and Religion. What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by jfh View Post
Science vs. belief? Sorry. Science trumps belief, and religion as well.

In the allopathic world, clinical tests and lab tests define their boundaries until more tests prove more. Theories become facts. Independent labs can repeat the tests to confirm the evidence. It is observable. Belief is not observable; and most likely not repeatable.

In the naturopathic world, personal experiences and anecdotal evidence is important.

So what really is your agenda? The most perfect immune system can be overwhelmed by foreign agents. The immune system must be trained. It cannot believe something will be fixed.
Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks jfh, and no need to be sorry, we are all big kids here, we can take it. If people don't like it they can visit in other threads or start their own thread.

Science or "belief", wow what a question? You gave a definition of science that holds water but what if what we believe to be science is not science? What if we are told by science or medicine that something is science therefore it must be fact when it isn't science or wasn't science at all?

You mentioned science, belief and religion. The three are very much the same. People have put science as high up on the pedestal as they put their own religion or even higher. Science can be factual but science has the same power over people as religion.

Just like attacking someone's religious beliefs, when attacking someone's science beliefs they become offended and angry. They start telling people how perfect science is, how science walked on water, how science understands disease and no one else outside of science can.

jfh, you said you "believe" cancer is viral and possibly fungal in nature not the body attacking itself or creating harmful cells from scratch.

If I didn't know better I would think you were doubting science.

What is my agenda? My agenda is to get people to stop their blind faith in medical science, put aside their belief in medical science and start their own research. "Belief will not fix an immune system." Belief will not fix anything that is a fact. Why is medical science failing so miserable? Because medical science is more "belief" than fact, every single person who believes in medical science does so in "faith" not reason or logic.

Medical science is just another religion. jfh, before anyone can learn how to fix the human immune system they will have to wade through the false science, beliefs and even religion and find the facts.

jfh, I hope you aren't offended by me comparing medical science to Santa Clause. I hope there are people who are not offended. As long as health and healing is an issue of pride before reason and logic we are not going to correct the human immune system. If we cannot put our pride aside we will do what we always do, fight and capitalize off of the suffering.

Anyone in natural medicine can become more effective if they eliminate their faith in science in order to separate scientific beliefs from scientific facts.


Last edited by goodsamaritan; 06-29-2010 at 08:51 AM. Reason: to fix quote
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† #17
Old 06-29-2010, 09:10 AM
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Default beleif or fact?

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Originally Posted by D Bergy View Post
As far as the possible cause being a Fungus, one of the more likely candidates is Cryptococcus neoformans.
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Originally Posted by D Bergy View Post

Dan


You are probably right Dan. However has medical science acknowledged it as a cause of cancer or being cancer?

What I would like people to do is loosen up their grip on their faith in science. Medical science is conducted by humans and as such full of mistakes if not completely corrupt.

We could take this thread to a new level. We can create our own science, one governed and ruled by facts instead of fear and profit and all we have to do is acknowledge what we personally cannot prove and categorize it.

Do we know for sure that Cryptococcus neoformans is cancer in a lot of people? No we do not, but that does not mean it isn't cancer in a lot of people. Reasonable speaking, it is very possible and needs to be categorized accordingly while we completely rule out medical explanation of cancer being from the body attacking itself or creating deadly cells.

One solid fact as far as far as we can tell for example is there is no proof that herpes is a virus. That's right; we only believe herpes is a virus because of our "faith" in medical science. If we were to investigate what we have access to, we can learn that there is no herpes test that detects the actual herpes virus. I believe the same goes for all viruses. The test only detects indications of viruses which is lame to say the least. Furthermore there is no proof that any sore caused by viruses or caused by any number of pathogens present in the sore. I'm not saying herpes isn't a virus that causes sores in 1 out of 4 people; I'm just saying we must believe it to be the case through faith in medicine not science. If we use logic and reason we could suspect any number of pathogens present in any sore to be the cause of the sore.
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† #18
Old 06-29-2010, 09:24 AM
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When I say I believe something, it is after I have done enough research to make me believe. Once I read/study the science, the tests, the rebuttals, I no longer have to say I believe. It is still a theory, when I start. This is because I can see that some science is deemed junk science. When I am done with my own research, I am convinced of the science. I no longer doubt. I have benefited from medical science 3 times in my life. I am amazed and excited regarding the potential of the modern science of gene therapy and stem cell research. The only problem I have with pharmaceuticals, are the side effects. This is why I am convinced that my path is toward the naturopathic. But I will not turn a blind eye on science.

Science is not the same as religion. Science is not a belief system. If you require that belief, then you are moving on the path of metaphysics. I'm acquainted with the metaphysical; but have seen absolutely nothing that convinces me of its relevance in my life.
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:32 AM
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I am going by people who have studied this past and present and seem to describe the same pathogen, although they may have named it differently at the time.

It is speculative, and they could be identifying similar but different pathogens. I tend to trust independent research, especially if they witness it live under magnification, and some have.

There could be more than one cause. I don't think any of these researchers proposed a single cause.

Gruner is one of those researchers from way back, and here is some of his work.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...1/?tool=pubmed

There are several others, including Royal Rife who simply named it BX and BY form. He was exceptionally thorough in his work, and left little to chance.

Char Boehm is an independent researcher that has accumulated a lot of information on these repeated references to a similar organisms throughout the historical research into a Cancer pathogen. The reference is from her accumulated experience.

The Rife Forum has an active discussion on this same topic currently.

Dan
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jfh View Post
When I say I believe something, it is after I have done enough research to make me believe. Once I read/study the science, the tests, the rebuttals, I no longer have to say I believe. It is still a theory, when I start. This is because I can see that some science is deemed junk science. When I am done with my own research, I am convinced of the science. I no longer doubt. I have benefited from medical science 3 times in my life. I am amazed and excited regarding the potential of the modern science of gene therapy and stem cell research. The only problem I have with pharmaceuticals, are the side effects. This is why I am convinced that my path is toward the naturopathic. But I will not turn a blind eye on science.
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Science is not the same as religion. Science is not a belief system. If you require that belief, then you are moving on the path of metaphysics. I'm acquainted with the metaphysical; but have seen absolutely nothing that convinces me of its relevance in my life.


jfh, "Enough research" is "belief" in itself. If I do "enough research" I can believe 911 was a domestic terrorist act, at the same time if I do "enough" research I can believe the opposite and think some ticked off Muslims did the job. No amount of research will prove one or the other because I wasn't on the planes, outside the buildings watching or behind closed doors through all the investigations. I simply do not know what happened on 911, I only know what I research and I can research till I die and I will still not know what actually happened.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am simply pointing out that medical science is not so much as science but faith and belief with a profit agenda. You and others may be thinking "yeah right" but letís face it in medicine the LEFT hand never ever knows what the RIGHT hand is doing. There is many a slip twixt a cup and a lip. Medicine is an assembly line, people only know their job and have no idea what the big picture is or how to do the whole thing.

"Enough research" means you have done enough to satisfy what? We could say to satisfy logic and reason which would be under ideal circumstances but that is rarely the case. We do "enough research" to satisfy our pride. This is why democrats hate republicans and republicans hate democrats. Both do "enough research" to satisfy their "belief" or pride. The parties think they are completely right and the other is completely wrong when in reality they are both equally wrong and equally right but having two constant battling sides allows us to be easily manipulated. The same goes with western and alternative medicine, having two sided makes us easy to manipulate because we will choose which side we wish to be on and then we will find "enough research" to believe 100% in our side.

jfh, I recognize you are like me and believe in some western medicine and some alternative medicine and not necessarily picking a side but that is rare and it doesn't change the fact that both western and alternative medicine is faith or belief based and as you said earlier belief won't fix an immune system or cure a disease.

Belief won't fix an immune system or cure a disease. This indisputable fact can be the very reason why both western and alternative medicine fail more than they succeed. Don't do "enough research", do the right research. Belief will fail every time and failing is a common denominator shared with medicine.

No one should turn a blind eye on science, matter of fact we should all scrutinize science with both eyes, both ears and not let up. We should hold science accountable.

What kind of naturopath do you want to be? Do you want to be the run of the mill naturopath who sells products out the ears with minimal results or do you want to be a naturopath that helps people cure diseases thought to be incurable. That is a valid question and not meant to be argumentative.

Medical science fails more than it succeeds. Zillions of donated dollars have been spent stem cell research and gene therapy yet children under the age of accountability are dying daily. It could be argued that stem cell research and gene therapy have yet to help mankind. This could be because the two are laden with belief or it could be because consumers believe in it and as such feed the beast with truck loads of free money for the research.

I am not trying to be argumentative. It is simply too easy to prove medical science is a belief and not a science at all. No one can argue that it is clearly an ineffective science or the 7 years olds would not be dying right now of horrible diseases.

To bring the discussion back on topic. Medicine has possible been lying about cancer from the conception of the name "cancer" and as such we need to scrutinize medicine in search of truths because one thing every single one of us knows is the human immune system can cure diseases said to be incurable, so how and why? Letís leave our pride out of the discussion and kick around why some people can cure diseases said to be incurable and other cannot. Letís talk about how a person can convert a failing immune system into a functioning immune system not with beliefs but with facts or at least proof. Proof is tricky, there is no such thing except firsthand knowledge everything else is total faith.
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bergy View Post
I am going by people who have studied this past and present and seem to describe the same pathogen, although they may have named it differently at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bergy View Post

It is speculative, and they could be identifying similar but different pathogens. I tend to trust independent research, especially if they witness it live under magnification, and some have.

There could be more than one cause. I don't think any of these researchers proposed a single cause.

Gruner is one of those researchers from way back, and here is some of his work.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC536941/?tool=pubmed

There are several others, including Royal Rife who simply named it BX and BY form. He was exceptionally thorough in his work, and left little to chance.

Char Boehm is an independent researcher that has accumulated a lot of information on these repeated references to a similar organisms throughout the historical research into a Cancer pathogen. The reference is from her accumulated experience.

The Rife Forum has an active discussion on this same topic currently.

Dan
Dan, you have me convinced. But I already knew cancer was fungus making me biased.

Naturally any number of fungi could be the cause of a person's cancer. Names are irrelevant except for marketing or promotion of medicine because when it comes to the human immune system, it doesn't matter what we call a harmful organism.

I think it is great that there are independent researchers trying to make sense of medical propaganda and I support them.

I myself want to discuss how a person's own immune system protects some people from fungus/cancer and not others. Granted the only thing that could possible save a person from dying of cancer now is a heart attack, stroke or accidental death. Right now the only fact anyone here knows is that the body can cure cancer/fungus. If we put our pride aside we can discuss what is possibly taking place when a person cures themselves whether they use naturopathy or the latest and greatest cure-all like ozone, MMS or the next perfectly marketed and labeled product that convinces a person to engage an immune response.

How do we get the human immune system to create an immune response towards all unwanted fungi or other harmful pathogens? I would love to get some independent researchers involved in this discussion.
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† #22
Old 06-29-2010, 12:01 PM
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I think you would be interested in reading up on Low Dose Naltrexone combined with Alpha Lipoic Acid. Dr. Burt Berkson has brought back quite a few terminal cases of the worst Cancer such as Cancer of the Pancreas, which is basically always fatal. By boosting the immune system and a few other tricks, he has result that are hard to dispute.

A search using his name and treatment will bring up quite a bit of information.

I use Low Dose Naltrexone to treat Crohn's Disease. It boosts the immune response, and indirectly corrects symptoms by getting to the source of the problem, which is a weak or improper immune response.

I like to use the bodies own systems to fight disease, so we think along the same lines. The bottom line is that I am well today, and suffer no consequences from the treatment. Not cured, but I am still working on that part. I will get to the answer eventually, but i have been busy treating Lyme for seven + years. I am done with that now, which gives me time to dig into Crohn's more.

Dan
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by D Bergy View Post
I think you would be interested in reading up on Low Dose Naltrexone combined with Alpha Lipoic Acid. Dr. Burt Berkson has brought back quite a few terminal cases of the worst Cancer such as Cancer of the Pancreas, which is basically always fatal. By boosting the immune system and a few other tricks, he has result that are hard to dispute.
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Originally Posted by D Bergy View Post

A search using his name and treatment will bring up quite a bit of information.

I use Low Dose Naltrexone to treat Crohn's Disease. It boosts the immune response, and indirectly corrects symptoms by getting to the source of the problem, which is a weak or improper immune response.

I like to use the bodies own systems to fight disease, so we think along the same lines. The bottom line is that I am well today, and suffer no consequences from the treatment. Not cured, but I am still working on that part. I will get to the answer eventually, but i have been busy treating Lyme for seven + years. I am done with that now, which gives me time to dig into Crohn's more.

Dan


It's good to see you are fighting the fight and winning. Naturally the answers are in the future and only as long as people are allowed to explore brand new methods like Dr. Berkson's.

The logic is simply, medicine has had unlimited means for research and has failed. We can logically discard all of their failed theories and move on. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and getting the same failing results.

One of the problems with health and healing today is the fact that we think modern technology is the only chance we have. I for one feel that is pretty presumptuous and as good a reason for the increasing amount of suffering as anything.

I love the human body and how it is created. I love the fact that the human body is superior to any living organism. I love the fact that whether you believe in God or evolution the answer is right in front of our nose. There is no way God has created us to be inferior to pathogens and there is no way we have evolved to be inferior to pathogens. So what's up? I will tell you, we have been taught to use science to emancipate ourselves from God and or evolution and as such we are so far off kilter that we have lost all common sense and reason and have become fixated on labels and marketing. Science and medicine is causing us to devolve because we believe in it them more than we believe in God or evolution.

Dan, the final answers you seek have nothing to do with technology. The answers you seek are already inside you and waiting. There are lots of people making breakthroughs in internal healing without all the spiritual mumbo jumbo and beliefs and without any modern technology.

Maybe this thread can help guide us all. People are cured of Lyme and Crohnís all the time, not just treating and control and it isnít medicine doing the cure.
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† #24
Old 06-29-2010, 04:31 PM
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An interesting short video on this topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zxUiNPN_As

Dan
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:08 PM
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An interesting short video on this topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zxUiNPN_As

Dan
A wonderful science discredited by most people. I know a naturopath personally who uses a darkfield scope for live blood analysis. I had worked with a few of his clients and the change in their blood caused him to contact me and I attempted to teach him how to heal without medicine but there was a big difference between sending clients out with a small bill for services verses a big bill for products.

He didn't have a choice; he had to sell products to make a living. I don't blame him.

The scope is a great tool for showing how super effective the human immune system is. I hope to use one to prove the effectiveness of the human immune system one day myself. Great video but they kind of wimped out with all the disclaimers though.

It's my "belief" that if you have something good it can stand the test of the FDA and AMA and will have no need for disclaimers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the FDA. Someone has to monitor and control all the gimmicks and lies. I just think disclaimers are moot if you have the real thing.



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Old 06-30-2010, 11:00 AM
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Default Question about naturopathy.

How common is it for naturopathic doctors to cure or help cure allergies?

I'm not asking about them helping control allergies by cutting out all gluten and massive diet changes. I'm asking about someone being allergic to peanuts or cats one day and not allergic a few days later while being able to eat gluten?

I need an example.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:39 PM
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Holy moly!!!!!!!!!! hahahahaha!!!!

I need to take a cold shower after reading this thread.....it's quite invigorating, to say the least! Big thank-you to goodsamaritan for adding the 'spice' needed to 'stir' our great thinkers here I'm on my way out to dinner & fireworks, but will be back (eventually) to add to this conversation.

You have some very compelling thoughts goodsamaritan!

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Old 07-04-2010, 04:52 PM
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Holy moly!!!!!!!!!! hahahahaha!!!!

I need to take a cold shower after reading this thread.....it's quite invigorating, to say the least! Big thank-you to goodsamaritan for adding the 'spice' needed to 'stir' our great thinkers here I'm on my way out to dinner & fireworks, but will be back (eventually) to add to this conversation.

You have some very compelling thoughts goodsamaritan!
Hi Cookie, I was just testing the Natural Medicine Talk waters with this topic. I drew some criticism but nothing too discouraging and thanks to Dan we have a serious discussion that has been taken up in the "general" discussion area so as not to be pigeon holed to cancer only. It's always a delicate undertaking finding an area for discussing the primitive human immune system and its complete lack of glory.
Come join in over there and if there is something you feel is worth commenting on here bring it over to "general" and we can pick up where we left off here.

I only hope you are not being facetious. Finding people like Dan is not an easy thing to do, if there are more great minds unafraid of discussing sensitive issues, I truly have hit the jack pot!
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Old 07-06-2010, 07:09 PM
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Heck no, I wasn't being facetious I'll certainly visit the other conversation, but there's one thing I'd like to address here before doing so. Many people will read this thread & unless they're on the same 'page' in the reseaching of this topic, they may just accept your opinion as 'truth'...

I'd just like to give an alternate view for them, if ya don't mind



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Originally Posted by good samaritan
post #3
It is my opinion the body is alkaline or acidic as a result of the condition of the body, mainly the stress it is under. I don't mean to be a skeptic or pessimist but I doubt using products to adjust ones alkaline or acidity is the answer to anything. It is my opinion that you need to correct the problems in the body and let the body balance it's on acidity or alkaline.

post # 9
I think we have beat alkaline and acidity to death though. As such it has proven irrelevant. If we can learn to evolve or adapt so we can restore our own immune system we will naturally balance out.


It is my belief that dietary influences on pH is the basics and foundation of a strong immune system. I think one of the most overlooked causes of disease is how the body becomes impaired by it's eventual inability to neutralize acids from excessive consumption of acid forming foods.

The thing is, a healthy ratio of acids & alkalies doesn't have to be complicated & isn't all that difficult to achieve. A good start for someone wanting to change their lifestyle would be to just eat 8 times more fresh veggies & fruits than refined foods and meat, milk & cheese at mealtime. It's no secret that many people consume massive amounts of acid forming foods compared to the amount of alkaline foods, and most don't realize the negative affects in doing so. And most don't know that in order to maintain the proper pH, the body has to use buffer salts (depleting their alkaline reserves).
What would happen if we consumed the correct balance of foods so not to overwork our lungs, kidneys and deplete buffer salts? My guess is less disease.... instead of the body slowly breaking down due to it's inability to tolerate constant utilization of its alkaline reserves, and our lungs & kidneys taking a beating by the process of excreting the neutralized acids from the body, our bodies would be happy little campers!
My thinking is when we put the least amount of stress on the body through dietary practices, getting as close to 80% fresh fruits & veggies - 20% acid forming foods as possible, the stronger our immune system will be ready to jump into action for us.
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Old 07-06-2010, 08:45 PM
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Heck no, I wasn't being facetious I'll certainly visit the other conversation, but there's one thing I'd like to address here before doing so. Many people will read this thread & unless they're on the same 'page' in the reseaching of this topic, they may just accept your opinion as 'truth'...

I'd just like to give an alternate view for them, if ya don't mind

It is my belief that dietary influences on pH is the basics and foundation of a strong immune system. I think one of the most overlooked causes of disease is how the body becomes impaired by it's eventual inability to neutralize acids from excessive consumption of acid forming foods.

The thing is, a healthy ratio of acids & alkalies doesn't have to be complicated & isn't all that difficult to achieve. A good start for someone wanting to change their lifestyle would be to just eat 8 times more fresh veggies & fruits than refined foods and meat, milk & cheese at mealtime. It's no secret that many people consume massive amounts of acid forming foods compared to the amount of alkaline foods, and most don't realize the negative affects in doing so. And most don't know that in order to maintain the proper pH, the body has to use buffer salts (depleting their alkaline reserves).
What would happen if we consumed the correct balance of foods so not to overwork our lungs, kidneys and deplete buffer salts? My guess is less disease.... instead of the body slowly breaking down due to it's inability to tolerate constant utilization of its alkaline reserves, and our lungs & kidneys taking a beating by the process of excreting the neutralized acids from the body, our bodies would be happy little campers!
My thinking is when we put the least amount of stress on the body through dietary practices, getting as close to 80% fresh fruits & veggies - 20% acid forming foods as possible, the stronger our immune system will be ready to jump into action for us.
You may be right. I certainly cannot prove one way or the other. I put my clients on a two week diet of no carbs and no sugars to give their autoimmune system a chance to reset. Once it is reset it still requires time on the diet to eliminate any fungal infections. Under ideal circumstances an autoimmune can reset and eliminate most fungi in less than two weeks and then they can go back to eating fruit.

I have a funny problem, I say funny because it shouldn't be problem but it always is. I can help a person cure most disease with the short term diet only, no products or medicine.

I'm aware that an optimum diet will allow for optimum quality of life. My diet stinks, not because I don't want to eat the optimum diet but because like so many, I don't have the means. I end up eating what I can and I am sure you are aware that processed carbs and foods are cheap.

I'm poor and poor for one reason only and that is because I can help people cure diseases said to be incurable without the use of products. First of all it is almost impossible to market cures and second it becomes completely impossible to market cures that require no product.

I am here to see if I can gradually introduce consistent cures which require no products to someone else so I am not the only one. I want a partner, or a hundred partners. The problem is common beliefs prevent people from being able to wrap their heads around cures without products. I have taught people who wanted to learn but they did not become consistent because they were more interested in applying what I do to what they do and that doesn't work. I do what I do because I spent 15 years removing what they do so they take the simple cure and start adding what I took out and then go in reverse.
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