Denise Minger revisits the China Study.

Ted_Hutchinson · ï¿½ #1 ï¿½ 08-01-2011, 04:40 AM

Another important blog post from Denise Minger detailing how we can all become confused but data and how that data can be misinterpreted.

One Year Later: The China Study, Revisited and Re-Bashed

Pleased read the whole of the blog post before replying. I appreciate why many here will find it a difficult read but I think we all have to make the effort to understand what is being said.

Thrasymachus · ï¿½ #2 ï¿½ 11-11-2011, 08:13 PM

This is an older thread, but I will bump it because my bro became a Paleo weirdo follower, started following their marketed niche and started quoting Minger. I already sent this to him an email so it is little work to paste it and add quotes.

Denise Minger is not a credible source. If you do a print preview of some her "blog articles", it will turn out to be 30 pages, like her recent "rebuttal" of the film Forks over Knives. Why would she care to write so much to debunk a diet or real experts that support veganism, a very fringe movement that not even 1% of the population adheres to? On an older version of her site she mentions she is a freelance writer, but who is she freelancing for with these huge "blog articles" complete with numerous graphs?

When she was vegan she managed to achieve massive vitamin deficiencies:
https://rawfoodsos.com/2010/01/09/raw-journey-part-1/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denise Minger's massive failure as a vegan

"I wound up with a naturopath... A blood test revealed a few deficiencies: B12, iron, and potassium—the latter of which made no sense at the time (hello, bananas!). The B12 levels were so low, in fact, that the doctor said I was probably facing neurological damage."

So many vegan products have b12 like nutritional yeast. And so many more are fortified with it like store bought nut milks, that is actually a huge achievement to manage what she achieved.

Further her methodologies are flawed because she is out of her depth like the rest of the Paleo and pseudo Paleo advocates:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30bananasaday

A Cancer Epidemiologist refutes Denise Mingers China Study Claims due to incorrect data analysis
...

Your analysis is completely OVER-SIMPLIFIED. Every good epidemiologist/statistician will tell you that a correlation does NOT equal an association. By running a series of correlations, you’ve merely pointed out linear, non-directional, and unadjusted relationships between two factors. I suggest you pick up a basic biostatistics book, download a free copy of “R” (an open-source statistical software program), and learn how to analyze data properly. I’m a PhD cancer epidemiologist, and would be happy to help you do this properly. While I’m impressed by your crude, and – at best – preliminary analyses, it is quite irresponsible of you to draw conclusions based on these results alone. At the very least, you need to model the data using regression analyses so that you can account for multiple factors at one time.

...

Ted_Hutchinson · ï¿½ #3 ï¿½ 11-12-2011, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrasymachus

my bro became a Paleo weirdo follower,

There is nothing weird in considering the circumstances present as humans evolved and basing our diet/lifestyle trying to match those circumstances with a modern equivalent. Either we evolved as a predator species or as prey. If you think we were mainly preyed upon then eating the diet of prey species will be more appropriate.

Quote:

Denise Minger is not a credible source. If you do a print preview of some her "blog articles", it will turn out to be 30 pages, like her recent "rebuttal" of the film Forks over Knives. Why would she care to write so much to debunk a diet or real experts that support veganism, a very fringe movement that not even 1% of the population adheres to? On an older version of her site she mentions sheis a freelance writer, but who is she freelancing for?

I think it's shabby trying to discredit the messenger when the message is so important. Denise has got a book advance that enables her to spend the time researching the subject. I'm certainly going to be first on the list when her book is published. In the mean time she needs to keep her presence know and the public interested in her ideas.

How to win an argument with a vegetarian" by Denise Minger the slide for here talk are here.

AHS Slides_Denise Minger
I find it hard to understand why people object to what she is saying or why they fear her message.
Surely it's just simple common sense.

Quote:

So many vegan products have b12 like nutritional yeast. And so many more are fortified with it like store bought nut milks, that is actually a huge achievement to manage what she achieved.

I disagree. Most of the vegan's and vegetarians I know don't make a good job of looking or staying healthy and when they return to eating a more balanced diet regain their health.

Quote:

Further her methodologies are flawed because she is out of her depth like the rest of the Paleo and pseudo Paleo advocates:

It's inevitable that everyone thinking about how humans evolved and what foods/lifestyle is best suited to human DNA will have to compromise so it's true a more paleo based lifestyle will be a pale imitation of what paleo life was really like. But we have to examine critically the state of current Western Diets and the health consequences we see around us.
We are definitely getting it wrong at the moment and we should be able to prevent most diseases that have a basis in flawed metabolism.
The question is whether a healthy diet should reflect or at least acknowledge how our DNA evolved.
To come to an understanding of what may be best for most people we must not allow liars and cheats to mislead us. By exposing the dishonesty & fraud that underlies much of the vegan/vegetarian literature Denise Minger is enabling us all to move forward with a more accurate understanding of the facts T. Colin Campbell actually discovered and reported and separate those from the false and misleading interpretation he put upon those facts.

However uncomfortable the truth we should not be afraid of facing it.
When the facts change (or our understanding of those facts) then sensible mature people change their minds.

knightofalbion · ï¿½ #4 ï¿½ 11-12-2011, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted_Hutchinson

There is nothing weird in considering the circumstances present as humans evolved and basing our diet/lifestyle trying to match those circumstances with a modern equivalent. Either we evolved as a predator species or as prey. If you think we were mainly preyed upon then eating the diet of prey species will be more appropriate.

I think it's shabby trying to discredit the messenger when the message is so important. Denise has got a book advance that enables her to spend the time researching the subject. I'm certainly going to be first on the list when her book is published. In the mean time she needs to keep her presence know and the public interested in her ideas.

How to win an argument with a vegetarian" by Denise Minger the slide for here talk are here.

AHS Slides_Denise Minger
I find it hard to understand why people object to what she is saying or why they fear her message.
Surely it's just simple common sense.

I disagree. Most of the vegan's and vegetarians I know don't make a good job of looking or staying healthy and when they return to eating a more balanced diet regain their health.
It's inevitable that everyone thinking about how humans evolved and what foods/lifestyle is best suited to human DNA will have to compromise so it's true a more paleo based lifestyle will be a pale imitation of what paleo life was really like. But we have to examine critically the state of current Western Diets and the health consequences we see around us.
We are definitely getting it wrong at the moment and we should be able to prevent most diseases that have a basis in flawed metabolism.
The question is whether a healthy diet should reflect or at least acknowledge how our DNA evolved.
To come to an understanding of what may be best for most people we must not allow liars and cheats to mislead us. By exposing the dishonesty & fraud that underlies much of the vegan/vegetarian literature Denise Minger is enabling us all to move forward with a more accurate understanding of the facts T. Colin Campbell actually discovered and reported and separate those from the false and misleading interpretation he put upon those facts.

However uncomfortable the truth we should not be afraid of facing it.
When the facts change (or our understanding of those facts) then sensible mature people change their minds.

I'm sorry, but most of that is worthy of nothing but contempt. Though the last paragraph at least has merit.

Miss Minger or Dr Benjamin Spock, Dr Kradjian, Dr Campbell, Professor Plant ("Even advanced breast cancer can be overcome. I know, because I've done it") John Robbins ('A Diet For A New America') etc. etc. etc.
I know where wisdom and truth is to be found - and it isn't with her.

https://www.notmilk.com

saved1986 · ï¿½ #5 ï¿½ 11-12-2011, 08:03 AM

OK people. Here is a fact of life (for whatever reason), vegans and carnivores are always at odds. Both sides present good points, unless you are a carnivore who eats meat 3 day or a vegan who eats nothing but raw fruit. Vegans get their share of fiber and enzymes, but need B-12 and Omega 3s. Carnivores get their share of essential fats, B-12 but need to up the fiber. Maybe we should politely discuss the pors and cons of each.

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