\r\n \r\n Statements like this do not have a place in rational conversation.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Because some jackoff was rude to me on another board does not give me the right to be rude someone totally different on a board like this (unlike main stream health forums, natmedtalk is for more open minded individuals).\r\n

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\r\n \r\n I think that Drack\'s point of view and perspective should be considered, and I give him credit for posting on a natural medicine forum. I agree that he\'s not a troll, and a reasonable two-way conversation on both sides will benefit all of us. If he can point out positive aspects of conventional medicine, I\'m open to hearing them. There are some newer medical treatments/procedures that can be appreciated by all.
\n
\nMany of us have had bad experiences with doctors in the US, and I think it\'s refreshing to hear of a younger doctor who\'s willing to discuss the pros and cons of all medical care. I think although he\'s stated that he\'s not here to learn, just the fact that he is open to hearing about natural treatments such as acupuncture, herbs, etc. is a plus that we should respect. Many of us have already welcomed Drack to the board, and I think if both sides are willing, then reasonable discussion can take place. That\'s got to be a good thing. Drack, you give an opposing view on many things, and as long as you are open-minded, I\'m glad you\'re here with us to represent your profession and to understand some of our concerns.\r\n

\r\n __________________
\r\n "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanual Kant~
\r\n
\r\nNatMedTalk and Beyond\r\n

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\r\n \r\n I wish more doctors would come here for discussion...they might actually learn if nothing else than that medicine is not a perfect science and that is why they need to keep an open mind ..I have found too many doctors cannot or will not think outside the medical text book ..there is more to healing than what is already written\r\n

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\r\n \r\n I know Dr. Oz is a big TV personality since he was introduced by Oprah years ago, and although I don\'t agree with everything he teaches like taking annual flu vaccinations, I\'m very impressed that he acknowledges the value of whole foods, alternative treatments and supplements like omega 3s, vitamin D3, Milk Thistle, etc. Dr. Weil is another good example of a doctor who sees the whole picture, and thinks outside of a medical text. To me that shows that they really care about helping others. \r\n

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\r\n \r\n Oh they absolutley know its not a perfect science for they bury their durg poisoned patients and their mistakes frequently. That in and of itself is their proof that they face daily... but they don\'t let it get in their way from doing the same old same old that brings in those paychecks.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n And yet Norway, where Drack practices uses much less antibiotics than other western nations, they have effectively made MRSA disappear. Also, Drack has mentioned to me in a PM that for Type 2 diabetes he tries a lifestyle change first before using meds. He is here to learn and discuss, he is not trolling. You cannot expect him to change his views overnight.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n
\nHi Drack,
\nWelcome to the board, I\'m glad to see you\'re expanding your thoughts & views on various ways in which to best serve your patients.
\nI\'ve also been a fan of Dr. Weils (Saved already mentioned him) for many years as he has an impressive backround in integrative medicine. In addition to his books, you can learn more about him here~
\nhttps://www.drweil.com/drw/u/PAG00008...drew-Weil.html
\nAnd he\'s also one of the directors here~
\nhttps://integrativemedicine.arizona.edu/
\n
\nAnyway, I look forward to bouncing things off you from time to time, hopefully you stick around \r\n

\r\n __________________
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\nThe art of medicine consists of amusing the patient while nature cures the disease
\n~Voltaire~
\n
\n\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Drack, Cookie is correct, you need to buy some of Dr Weil\'s books, may I suggest Spontaneous Healing and also 8 weeks to optimal health. You can also look him up online, he is bascially one of the founding fathers of Integartive medicine in the US and there are really informative case studies in his book.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Oh yeah, and Audi:
\n
\nAt first you said it was mg, so I was kinda shocked how low it was. With mmol it\'s not so scary. If you only have these 3 measurements, I wouldn\'t sound the alarm just yet. Measure it again a few times, to make sure.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n yeah yeah ok drack we both know tests are not gospel, but you are still not reading me never mind..... now I have another question for you
\nwhy is it that doctors still prescribe bisphosphonates for osteoporosis knowing that they do more harm than good ?\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Well , tunia I tried to point out the hypocracy in my post that Drack complained of as being too long..
\n
\nHe failed to see the big picture. Drugs and the companies that produce them are fraudulent and they lie to the public and cause untold deaths which in my perspective is akin to murder. Of coures he harped right away that one article talked about death from narcotic use.. none the less, narcotics for pain control are frequently not required with alternative medicine if the practiioner knows what they are doing. Mean while a tons of narcotics are released into our world by pharmaceutical companies who have brainwashed physicians that this is the only way. Of course there are corrupt doctors. And then there are doctors who do not think though what they do even one step beyond the text book
\n
\nThen I put links in that clearly demonstrated fraud by the pharmaceutical companies that I know he uese. Not a word mention on that. ... as well as the delayed process of black box warnings that he also chose not to address, that kill many.
\n
\nHe preferes to say that I just listed a bunch of already known side effects.. this clearly says to me that he has no concept of what he is doing to a person when he prescibes this stuff. He takes risk with their life and wellbeing, not being able to tell if a side effect will kill or maime or not. But alas. the poor boy. These are the only pathetic tools he has.
\n
\nThen I listed some of the greatest master minds in alternative medicine of our time and not a word. Not even a thanks for the links, I might look at them when I get time.
\n
\nI feel that the brain washing in this case may be quite severe and the wall too ridged to penetrate. I just dont know why he is here. To teach us a thing or two? If I want to consult with a doctor about any kind of medical care I want a doctor who knows alternative medicine and will not prescirbe an aspirn for a heart condition but will be quick whitted and know the pathways to healing the disease and be ready to implement them.
\n
\nSo what the heck is he doing here? Even a medical doctor\'s interpretation of medical tests is erronous and incomplete so why would anyone want that? What a naturopathic doctor sees when he looks at lab work is not what a comventional doctor sees, and the resultant treatments are way different. Naturopaths seek resoration and balance and will use minerals and herbs and a variety of natural treatments to bring it about for they have a much deeper understanding of the cause of abnormal lab values. Medical doctors? Barely. Not even worth talking about. They wont give you any magnesium until you come in to the ER in cardiac arrest, at which point they might be inclined to mainline it into you if your not dead already. Thyroid issues,, here take some thyroid hormone. Never mind feeding your thyroid the nutrients, the minerals that it needs to bring about its restoration.
\n
\nand Audi, I brought up the bisphosphonates for osteoporosis issue in my post, which he also ignored. I will assume he will ignore your question also. He is not willing to account for the malpractice that goes on everyday.. No doctors do not necessarily receive kickbacks for prescribing drugs, at least not like they use to. The pharmceutical companies have such a hold on their brains that is no longer necessary. They do like they are told like good stooges, as they are locked in by regulations and laws that the pharmaceutical companies paid huge somes of money to implemnt, so now these doctors of conventional medicine are a pharmaceutical company\'s dream come true.
\n
\nTuni,. I do think the metaphorical analysis used in chinese medicine... you know, wood, metal, fire, etc which explains the whole symtems interrealtionship within the human body as well as how it goes into disease and how to get out, is way way beyond the ability of this one to comprehend. You have to have a very high level of intellegence to undertand it and accompanied by an incredibly open mind to use it and be able to SEE how it functions. Doctors use linear programed response... and I say linear programmed response because most often logic does not even enter into what they think about disease. And doctors spend a great deal of time patting each other on the back for their conformity, and punishing if one steps out of line.
\n
\nThe current medical sciences within conventional medicne seem to have no system of understanding... no guiding laws or rules. They cannot provide a theory to heath or healing nor in the manufacture of medicine. There is no integrated knowledge of the entire engergetic, physical system. Their drug therapies are just a shot in the dark and they have no comprehension of what they do to the body mind spirit complex in total. The only systems of medicine that offer a complete theory on health, healing and the applicaitons of medicines is Traditional Chinese Medicine and Homeoapthy. That is why these systems can cure and conventional medicine never cures the total mind body spirit complex. With conventional drug therapy it is like trying to patch a leaking seive with a bandaid... and of course it makes a lot of money in the long run keeping people unhealthy, or just well enough to function and keep paying for more drugs and useless therapies. \r\n

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\r\n \r\n thats because it is all a fraud ,and he knows that most people dont even have genuine osteoporosis , their bone density simply doesnt fit the \'average\' as dictated by the dexa machine and then it depends on which dexa is being used ...Dexa machines are a clever scheme invented by the pharmaceutical companies to medicate people unnecessarily
\n
\ndexa\'s = cash cow\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Arrowwind09: I agree with what you\'re saying about the industry and doctors\' place within it. The medical industry has achieved total domination of universities, governments, health services and the mass media (which creates popular culture). In the UK there are even special laws to stop people protesting against animal research organisations! They\'re more powerful than the arms trade!
\n
\nI haven\'t talked much about that side of things because I am pushing one particular point in my arguments. It\'s hard for people to face up to their involvement in a massive criminal deception. And it is totally impossible for you or me to explain how a non-linear theory works in a few paragraphs on a web forum. It took me nearly a year of full-time study to get it. Some of my fellow students never did.
\n
\nI don\'t know much about homoeopathy, but I also agree there are not many fully integrated and complete systems out there. I would be inclined to think that Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine could be included too. It looks like classical European medicine also had a systemic-functional theory but that it has been lost.
\n
\nHowever, I do not agree with you or others that Drack is in the wrong forum. I know he is complacent in his assumption that his metaphysical approach is superior to our phenomenological one, and the way he takes up the expert posture when someone flatters him with a technical question, but there must be a reason he keeps coming back in the face of several of us letting rip against him full force. I don\'t think he\'s just trying to win an argument. He didn\'t start off in an adversarial way. There is a spark somewhere that\'s looking for the truth. And his presence has generated some interesting bits of writing from all of us.
\n
\nIt would be a bit dull around here if we just spent all our time slapping each other on the back and exchanging recipes.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Tuina: I thought it was pretty clear. I don\'t care what evidence the drug companies might demand from their competitors, they\'re in no position to decide. As for me, it boils down to what I said, the more abstract the treatment, the stronger need for hard evidence (though evidence would be required for all, and if possible, the highest quality). I think this applies to conventional and alternative medicine equally. As far as I\'m aware I don\'t demand higher standards from alternative medicine than conventional.
\n
\nI\'m not too worried about not having absolute truth, that\'s impossible anyway. But I try to get as close as possible and work with that. Btw what exactly is wrong with statistics when trying to get objective info?
\n
\nSee, I never did that, but
\n
\nI just found that funny. But about being in the wrong forum, of course I am, that\'s the whole point. I talk to colleagues all day anyway.
\n
\nOk, Arrowwind: Now pardon me if there are some points I miss, as I\'ve mentioned before I find it hard to keep up this whole forum business, and when there\'s multiple people to respond to at a time I\'ll miss some things. Thanks for the links though, I\'ve looked at some of them already, but not in depth. I could argue the neutrality of a site called naturalnews of course, just like you\'ve scoffed at every medical journal I\'ve linked. But I\'ll just have to take a look and see if I can find any neutral sources on the subjects.
\n
\nWhen I said "the really bad ones" I was referring to the cases of pharm companies being fraudulent/evil/etc. I know they are evil, every doctor knows this. But cases of fraud has nothing to do with us, that\'s for the law. What should we do, for example, stop using heparin altogether because of the incident where it was contaminated? That would sure give you a lot more deaths.
\n
\nFor a lot of the rest you are just listing side effects. That\'s something we know about, and have to weigh against the benefit. The fact that side effects exist isn\'t really saying much. As for drugs causing so and so many deaths, that doesn\'t say much either, because you don\'t know what these people were treated for and chances are they would have died sooner, or in larger quantities.
\n
\nLet\'s see, the bisphosphonates? As far as I can tell, they work: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....pub3/abstract
\n
\nThen there\'s of course side effects here as well. But the serious side effects happen at a much lower rate than the amount you treat. Now for the DXA scan, what makes you think it\'s a fraud? To me x-ray absorbtion seems like a pretty logical way to measure bone density.
\n
\n
\nOne last thing. Arrowwind, as a nurse, I gotta wonder. Aren\'t you part of this whole evil scheme that is conventional medicine?\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Natural News could easily be viewed as non neutral but many of his articles he backs up with studies and a variety or reports. His perspective is that only natural substances should enter the body for the most part, and that our corporate, military industral complex world is killing us all. In my limited viewpoint, in general, this is what I see just looking around my immediate world. Natural news can help you to see what you are up against as he digs into issues and exposes corruption.
\n
\nI do not understand how you can do business with companies that routinely do fraud when it comes to people\'s lives. Everytime a prescription is written don\'t you wonder if the pharmaceutical company lied about this drug too? How many millions of prescriptions were written in good faith only to find out later that the pharmaceutical company witheld information about its products safety, and in many cases knew that they were very dangerous drugs. How can you have faith when you KNOW that they are evil? Do you like dancing with the devil? Do you think you can outsmart the devil? Would you not prefer to have an arsenal for your use that you KNOW is safe and time tested over the years? Wouldn\'t you like to eliminate the devil from your life and from your patient\'s?
\n
\nHow can you promote money into their evil pockets?
\n
\nYou\'re still not getting it. Side effects are posioning effects. Every drug you administer will have side effects even if you cannot measure it objectively. These chemicals go in and play havoc with metabolic systems that require absolute balance.. Enzyme systems, the immune system, the nervous system, the digetive system. If a side effect becomes so pronouced that you have an active pathological symptom then the damage is done and it may be difficult to reverse. Before the symptom appears there is that space of time where the drug is still producing a side effect that is unseen. Only when is becomes so exteme that the body reacts in defence does the "side effect" become visible. Some of these side effects are the bodies effort in mounting a defense and are a detox reaction, generally gone awye. Other side effects are the actual poisoning symtom. Well, its all poisoning but sometimes the body has no way to mount a defense to promote a detox of the chemical as it has signficiantly disrupted pathways of elimination and a multitude of functions required to make that happen.
\n
\nI think you might do well to work for hospice for a while and take a look at all the fractures that occur after patients have been on these drugs. You see, they come into hospice due to fx femur, fx spine.. and as I said I have seen two cases of jaw disintegration.... which they say is so rare. Statistically I should have not seen any. Perhaps it was a fluke or perhaps they are lying once again I dont know but if I saw two cases I suspect that there are quite a few brewing out there that have not reached a level of symptomology to drive them to the physician. Bones can deteriorate for quite a few years before the symptoms become overt.
\n
\nAside from that the use of these drugs, they ignore that fact that most osteoporosis developes in POST MENAPAUSAL women , To me that is a huge clue that this is a hormonal issue. Not a lack of biophospate issue.
\nHormones dictate almost every function in the body, including the placement of bone. Aside from hormones many other minerals and vitamins are involved in bone placement. As digestion ability declines with age accompanied with poor eating habbits and other declines in lifestyle osteoporosis is an enivitable response for many people. How can you expect your bones to hold up when you are vitamin D3 deficient? Vitamin K2 deficient, magnesium deficient, Silica deficient. trace mineral deficient. Calcium is generally the one mineral people do take adequate amounts of in their diet if they are eating normally. The medical profession pumps huge amounts of calcium into these little old ladies, much of which is not assimilated, and the pills are sometimes found in stool. First off its the wrong calcium. Calcium carbonate should never be used in humans. Never.
\n
\nThe other aspect I am familiar with in the use of these drugs is that physicians keep their patients on them way too long.Studies indicate 1 to 1.5 years of use.. that is all...so why are patients on them 3, 5 and 10 years... so many patients, not just a few.
\n
\nIf osteoporosis prevention was addressed nutritonally properly osteoporosis would not be such a big deal. The answer is right there but it is ignored by the medical profession. Deal with hormones. Deal with vitamins and good nutrition. Deal with digestive errors. If these fail then take the drugs. These should not fail if the patient is motivated to continue in full particpation of life. It is an educational process and I tell you, you doctors are gonna get whamed with this because women are educating themselves, especially younger women and when their time comes they are going to be demanding answers... and they will have the answers and you guys are going to look pretty dam foolish if you dont keep up with your patients.
\n
\n
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\r\n \r\n \r\n Originally Posted by Drack\r\n \r\n \r\n Then there\'s of course side effects here as well. But the serious side effects happen at a much lower rate than the amount you treat. Now for the DXA scan, what makes you think it\'s a fraud? To me x-ray absorbtion seems like a pretty logical way to measure bone density. \r\n \r\n

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\n
\nI am not to familiar with what Audi is trying to tell us. I seemed to get that these machines are not accurate from what he said. Maybe he can clarify further as I am not familiar with the issue.
\n
\n
\nThis is a fair question and perhaps you will have time to read my reply. As a nurse I view my primary responsibilty to be a patient advocate. This means that I will stand up in their defense when ever I can and when ever it is solicited. I do not view my role as merely an outstretch of a physicians hand...no good nurse would. We have been in battle with physcians since the very start with Florence Nightengale.
\n
\nWhen I started nursing I had already acquired huge, by comparison anyway, to all conventioal medical personel and other nurses and the general public, huge experience in alternative health though direct work in a few small alternative clinics in California. I learned a lot about the gut and bowels and nutrition and spiritual healing. I liked working with people and getting to the bottom of the issue but most of the doctors I knew where chiropractors and I knew that that was not the path for me.
\n
\nBack in those days there were no alternative health professions of any signficiant degree. There were no schools for naturopathy, that I could find anyway. This was years before the internet and any developed educational systems for alterntive medicine. I did have some opportunity to associate with medical doctors who whet out on a professional limb to apply alternative therapies. They taught me a lot. In those days they would talk to anyone who would listen as their story was so important and they knew not just how to get it out. I saw people get well in those protocols they used that I have not seen get well to date in conventional medicine... I also saw failures... as it was an undeveloped profession and lacked fully developed protocols and research at the time. I also had significant help with my own health though alternative medicine, especially homeoapthy which was prescibed for me by a medical doctor.
\n
\nOne day I woke up and decided that I wanted to know what conventional medicine was all about. I went to nursing school and found out. I was horrified by the tortures I saw and I tell you quite a few resident doctors got a dam loud lecture from me regrading bowel care. I just couldn\'t believe the constipaton that they allowed to plague their patients. Other nurses were equally as stupid. I saw frail patients taken for medical tests and not survive the procedures. I saw little old ladies from nuring homes with no advocate, actually wards of the state, be experimented on by student surgeons. I saw doctors come in on drugs and alcohol. I guess Ive seen about all anyone could want to see.
\n
\nInitally I trained in midwifery and did home births for a while but it was too stressful for my constitution, especially after my first child came. Being on call 24/7 I just could not do. It was the career choice that failed for me but I still wholeheartly support it for those who have the endurance. The whole pradigm needs work so midwives are not so stressed and overworked. Many midwives fail in their live when having to choose between family and the patient. Choosing one or the other, well, neither is a good choice to maintain a practice. I made may choice and it was family.
\n
\nSo then entered the question as to what I could do in conventional nursing that did not go against my grain as my beloved midwifery was out.
\n
\nI entered into pediatric nursing and was involved in maintianing sort of mini - ICU\'s in family homes for chronically ill children. Vents, feeding tubes, trachs, critical diabetes management, wound cares, TPN, all in the home as these kids were not cost effective to keep in hospital. Soon I realized that these kids did better at home than in the hospital. I found this acceptible work as there were no alternative thinking doctors available for these kids at all... and there were a lot of these kids, since l lived near one of the leading primary childrens hospitals in the nation. These kids and their families were totally as the whim of conventional medicine as there were no naturoapthic doctors to be found.. but on occassion families did find their way to them as the few alterntive doctors I did know shared stories with me about some of their experiences with kids like this. Anyway, in Dallas Texas it was just about impossible.
\n
\n
\nI had to return to hopsital work periodically to keep updated in advances in technology and procedure. I am a firm believer in much of what they do for critical care. I worked in a unit silimlar to what you might call step down ICU.. yet still they ignore nutriton and the gargabe feed to patienst I would not feed to my dog. They also need to learn infection control that does not encompass the use of broad spectum antibiotics and many options are now available... but they refuse to look and to see.
\n
\nI did quite a few years in hospice work. At this point Naturopathic medicine had evolved significantly. Hospice is the place where we prepare to bury the mistakes of the physican. These people had no recourse. Their belief systems did not permit them to seek alternative medicine. Like so many physicians, patients are brainwashed too. The create their reality and do have the right to do so. They have the right to choose limiting beliefs. They have the right to choose poisonous medications. They have the right to refuse to learn the truth and to keep their eyes closed to information that is coming at them from all around. I saw my work in hospice not so much as a physical healer but as a spiritual healer... although even in hospice, where the patients are so terribly declined there were few bedsores that I could not bring healing to.
\n
\nI always endeavored to work in areas of nursing where I saw that the patients had no other options in medical care...
\n
\nbut these days options are growing and multiplying quickly. Some of my hospice patients walked out of there merely from dropping all the drugs that they took. As time went by and my knowledge curve increased I started to see that some hospice patients could heal with alternative medicine as my knowledge expanded on what was availabe. I am quite sure now that most if not all of the HIV/AIDS patients and Hep C patients could cure with the right therapy. Not so for most of the other types of patients. I had patients die from parasites. That is just unacceptable these days. In one of the parasite cases where the patient had been to some of the leading univeristy hospitals, the family of the patient had not even been counseled at all about the contagon factor on this particular parasite. Not one dam word was said to them... so there, as grandpa lay on his death bed from parasites in his brain I had to educate the family on their risks. Doctors continue to remain blinded to parasites in the USA.
\n
\nLong years of drug use and poor nutrition and lack of self awareness had lead almost all the patients to their graves, escorted by their family practitoners.. There was no recourse and the body was too damaged from years of malnutrion and pharmaceutical drug us..... Yet these people deserve excellent nursing care also and that is what I was there to deliver,, not to give a lecture, not to try to change who they are. They were all grown ups and had created who they were over their long lifetimes... I was there to deliver excellent nursing care and spiritual support and thats what I did as well as trying to allieve the severe agony that so frequently now accompanies death these days due to ill conceived medical treatments. I became very skilled in the application of narcotics as hospice nurses have broad agency though physician\'s standing orders to use what they deem fit. I saw few die from just plain old old age. I worked in a 22 bed inpatient hospice facilty that specialized in acute mangaement of hospice patients. We dealt with lots of EXTREME symptoms and suffering and a good day sometimes was just if you could get the screaming to stop.
\n
\nSo. philosophically nursing has been a challenge. I tried to avoid the pit falls as best as I could and to do right by by patients. I even managed to convert a couple of open minded doctor\'s to alternatives in some areas regarding nutrition and in wound care which was a speciality of mine for a time.
\n
\nToday, largely retired, I work in massage as I was trained in this before nursing and I promote alternative medicine in my very small mountain rural community though nutritonal consults and classes. I maintian a couple of educational websites and I grow organic food and am working in providing excellent food to my community through farmers market.
\n
\nThe way I see it you are in a position to do much much more than I, if you will open your mind and start learning.. \r\n

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\r\n \r\n On the contrary, the drug companies are in a position to decide because they almost completely dominate governments, universities and the media. How else can it be that non-corporate practitioners are not even allowed to publish directly quoted testimonials from patients? How come there are special laws against people who protest against animal testing? How come governments bought millions of doses of quack remedy Tamiflu? How come Chinese herbal formulas came very close to being banned, and only the House of Lords managed to get a compromise, even though they are very well quality controlled in China and have an informal track record of thousands of years of safe use? How come we have corporate activists in the mass media denouncing non-corporate medicine, but not the other way round? The situation in the health business is pretty close to totalitarian, with one discourse dominating everything.
\n
\nAcupuncture and NSAIDS perform pretty much the same against placebo for knee arthritis (that\'s leaving aside the nonsensical idea of placebo acupuncture). Acupuncture does not kill thousands of people a year. Why are NSAIDS the automatic choice? Why the difference in perception?
\n
\nThere are two big problems with statistics.
\n
\n1: By the time information seeps down to the gutter level of the mass media, the ambiguous nature of the information is simplified to statements like \'such-and-such works\'. What does this actually mean? The knowledge is highly constructed and ambiguous. A drug can have a fairly low difference against placebo and the study still be considered significant if the sample is large enough. I\'m not a statistician, but let\'s say we had a drug performing 15% better than placebo, in a study large enough to make the result significant at 99%. That would be called a successful drug, when actually 15% is pretty poor odds.
\n
\nExample: a car mechanic comes up with a theory that cars failing to start is caused by Battery Depletion Syndrome. After torturing a few motorbikes for no particular reason, he does a trial on cars. He uses placebo jump-leads on 1000 cars and real jump-leads on 1000 cars. 100 of the placebo cars start anyway, and 115 of the experimental group cars start. Great result! 15% better than placebo in a large trial! But a bit tough if you\'re one of the 885 cars that didn\'t have a flat battery. OK, you might need to change the numbers a bit to get the example to work, but do you get it?
\n
\n2. Real, vibrant health and happiness comes from the development of consciousness, interpersonal ethics, and body awareness. Real understanding of what health actually is can only come from our own, personal self-development. I can feel what is going on in my internal organs just as clearly as you can feel when you need to urinate (or do you need statistics for that too?). Without that, we are walking blindfolded with only the voice of an extremely suspect industrial power to guide us. Statistics are the blindfold. Remember the analogy I gave early on about children trying to understand sexuality by speculating about it? Using statistics to try and understand health is exactly like that.
\n
\nI have a patient who phoned me yesterday. He was very indignant against the idea that part of my treatments is to help his general health, because he\'d been to a doctor, breathed into a tube, and been told he was in perfect health. He has severe insomnia, chronic back pain, severe depression, and a slow, tight, irregular pulse. He\'s had a heart bypass. Would you say he was in perfect health?\r\n

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\r\n \r\n tunia,
\nI fully agree with this. So much of my personal experience revolves around this type of learning... in the 13 years between leaving home and going to nursing school especially. Lots of time spent in developing body awareness and awakening my consciousness. Getting past programming from family and institutions and media. Recreating my personal paradigm to support health and personal prosperity... and by prosperity I mean developing the capacity to create within my own circle of self all that I need to unfold my spiritual path for this life. It took me to places most people do not go. And along the way I found many teachers who took the time to help me open doors of perception. It landed me at this date, in a very positive place, where my unfoldment continues.
\n
\nIn order to command your reality with full awake consciousness you must break down ALL the paradigms that restrict. You can chip at it in pieces, but eventually you see that there is only one great paradigm designed to control you and all of your perceptions... which imprisons your mind body spirit complex and keeps it from its potential.
\n
\nThe current world paradigm mandates that you do not feel or think to deeply. Children are not taught about the power that resides in their body and in their consciousness. Much is done to dumb them down.. and with the inherited dullness provided by parents each generation is suceptible to darker perception and fear and intimidation and false beliefs that seal the cage they reside in unless they choose differently.
\n
\nThere are ways to break out. There are many ways to break out. But you really have to want to and you have to call to your freedom and when the opportunity comes to escape you must walk through the door no matter how scary or foreign it appears.
\n
\nOver the years, many hundreds of people have passed under my hands of care. They have had lots of different kinds of disease. But what I saw was that ultimately the primary disease is lack of vision and freedom. Those who develop vision, who can glimpse a truth, have the best chance of saving themselves and restoring true health. These people are few and far between but I have met a few. They have a light in their eyes that reveals their connection to their true self.
\n
\nI understand what you say when you can percieve all of your organs.. I can pretty much to that also. There have been a few things that have stumped me but by and large I can sense inactivity, sluggishness, hyperactivity. I bet the Chinese have lots of words for the different levels of activity in an organ. I have been able to "see" disease as well as see the path to healing, if it be a change in diet, and herb, a vitamin, a change if belief structure or shifing the energy in my environment or body. Im certainly no master. Sometimes I wait a long time for the answer which has ususally been right under my noise but I did not see. Most people dont even know where their stomach is and cannot tell what organ hurts, never mind why it could possibly hurt. .... these people, the vast majority, require care that they are capable of comprehending. Therefore only people who are wanting to open doors will walk into your office. If they should enter there by mistake they will soon leave.
\n
\nYet bringing this level of understanding is not an easy thing to do as people have to want to evolve in this direction. Most do not want to.
\nQi Gong certanily is one way. There are a number of systems of perception that offer this opportunity to various levels.
\n
\nand for those who do not want to there is conventional medicine, and alternative medicine also, as most of alternative medicine is not at that level either.... but it holds a potential. When one false belief falls others often follow with it.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Drack you are on the right forum. As for bone density and x-rays, seems the most logical way to me. As for biphosphonates, no way.
\n
\nSide effects? Alternative meds have side effects, but not as bad.
\n
\nStatins, the original statin was made by nature in the form of red yeast rice. T think its mevacor or levacor. But there are the same problems with red yeast rice there are with other statins.
\n
\nDrack, this is a true story. This happened to coworker\'s mother and an aunt of mine. Bothe were going downhill fast (multiple med issues) and both had there meds reduced in what they were rfeceiving and the dosages of what they kept receiving and they both became better.
\n
\nAlso, in the US, you would not believe the amount of people on mental meds (antidepressants, antianxiety drugs, ADHD drugs, pain killers etc). (50 percent is not an unreasonable number)\r\n

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\r\n \r\n dexa cannot measure bone quality nor can it accurately measure bone mineral density because it is based on average heights and weights giving small boned or thin people a lower bone density than they really have
\nit is not by accident but by design the pharmaceutical companies
\ninvented the dexa to further their profits in the sickness industry
\n
\ndrack read this for now,Im pressed for time
\n
\nhttps://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/sick3.html
\n
\n
\nhttps://greenmedinfo.wordpress.com/20...r-your-health/\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Yeah, I know medicines can be harmful and that\'s why it must be researched carefully and the patients followed up carefully. That\'s why, as we talked about, I follow patients with blood tests and consultations after starting up a statin. Far from everyone gets side effects, and very few get the serious ones. Each patient is different and if side effects do appear of course I have to consider stopping the med or finding an alternative.
\n
\nYeah, as I said I saw how in the US there are commercials telling people to ask their "prescriber" for this or that drug. I was quite shocked, here it is illegal to advertise prescription meds.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Question for Arrowwind: Have you kids had vaccines or ever had antibiotics?\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Drack,
\n
\nThis guy used to be a research chemist for a pharmaceutical company and got so disgusted with the whole set up he went alternative.
\n
\nHere he lets us into the reason that biphosphonate drugs, such as Fosamax and Boniva are causing fractures in an amusing and RUDE rant. After reading this you wil cringe every time you write a script for a biphosphonate drug.
\n
\nhttps://thepeopleschemist.com/%e2%80%...-sulfur-award/\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Best things for osteoporosis:
\n
\n1) Bone broth
\n2) Regular weight bearing exercise
\n3) Magnesium supplements
\n4) Do not overeat the protein.
\n
\nAnd sally fields still looks pretty damn hot!\r\n

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\r\n \r\n And boron (Twenty Mule Team Borax is my favorite)..
\n
\n\r\n

\r\n __________________
\r\n -
\n- Jim
\nLife is just one damned thing after another - Elbert Hubbard
\n
\n\r\n

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\r\n \r\n And sunshine
\n And silica
\n And SULFUR
\n And 57 other minerals.
\n
\n And I hope Sally is taking alot of Boniva.\r\n

\r\n __________________
\r\n Let Food Be Your Medicine And Medicine Be Your Food.(Hippocrates)\r\n

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\r\n \r\n I called a pharmacy about a yr or 2 ago and asked how much that drug is since it is once a month dosage. 120$ I know 2 old greek guys in their 90s, one has shrunk a little the other is 6ft 1 still. They move around and are active.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n I have written on this topic before, before you were on the forum, Saved.
\n
\nAt the time of their scheduled vaccines we were not even in connection with a pediatrician. Although at the time I was not fully against vaccines I was limiting them. I had decided to wait till they were older to start some of the vaccinations.. I did not know all the dirty details then that I now know... this was 25 years ago.
\n
\n
\nI decided when we planned to travel extensively into Mexico that they should have the measles vaccine. They got the MMR and I lived to regret it. They also got the polio vaccine.. This was before I knew about the contamination of the vaccine with SV40 virus. Both kids had some difficulty, and it landed one in the hospital.
\n
\nI will mention that when we went for the MMR neither boy had had a shot of any kind... so being the stupid mother I was at the time I figured I would show them its OK. I took the vaccine even though I knew I was immune to measles. Before I even got back to my car from the clinic I had arthritis. All my joints started to be in signficiant pain immediately. It took me a month to deal with situation and it fianlly resolved but I have been plagued with symptoms of Rhumatoid Arthritis every since, and quite severe at one point. This, too, l learned to eliminate with natural medicines. The predisposition remains. I think probably some genetic damage was done. If I dont keep on the ball with supplements it starts to come back.. but I know how to make it go away quick.
\n
\nWhen the boys were small we did not live near any doctor that practiced natural or alternative medicine. Although when they were both very young I did have access and one homeopath which saved Travis from a hospitalizaton when I thought he might have neonatal sepsis or some terrible something. Realize that I was still pretty stupid regarding alternative medicine, especially with children and not having access to support is not helpful when you are trying to find your way through the maze with sick kids. All your fears can become hugely amplified and trying to remain objective is difficult. Travis had not eated for 3 days and had high fever at age 2.5 months... listless, dehydrated. Homeapathy cured him in 15 minutes. If it hadn\'t we would have gone from there directly to the hospital.
\n
\n You can read my account of antibiotic use with the boys and how I finally met a doctor that saved both my sons from a terrible antibiotic fate at the link below. They remained antibiotic free all through grade school and high school as we learned to apply homeopathy and I started to discern the nature of various illnesses that kids get. Most are viral.. including those dam ear infections, that can turn fungal when antibiotics are repeately used. Sometimes a bacteria overlay can occur and even MRSA with too much antibiotic use and I have seen this in my work, but still, antibiotics generally are not required unless things get quite severe, IF you know what to do.
\nhttps://www.healthsalon.org/417/chron...nd-homeopathy/\r\n

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\r\n \r\n to clarify.. dexa measures the BMC then divides that by the surface
\narea of the bone being measured providing a 2 dimensional reading,
\nit does not measure bone quality nor can it predict fractures since the
\nresults depend on interpretation and since all dexa machines are
\ncalibrated differently the error margin can be as high as 8% going
\none way or the other from the \'normal\' reference range set by the
\ndexa manufacturers
\n
\nthe reference range was set by measuring the peak bone mass of
\nhealthy young women in their 30\'s that included a disproportionately
\nlarge number of athletic team members..this is where the T scores
\ncome from ...and since only T-scores are used in diagnosis
\nit guarantees that all older women will fall into the negative range and
\nbe diagnosed as having osteoporosis
\n
\nwhere as the Z-score that measures BMD against the average in your
\nsame age group,height and weight is not used for diagnoses
\n
\ndexa scanning is an inexact science specifically created for the
\nsickness industry by the pharamceutical companies ..they have
\ncreated an epidemic of osteoporosis, medicating people whose BMD
\ndoes not fall within \'their reference range\'\r\n

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\r\n \r\n JFH, I forgot boron and silica.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Thank you Audi, that is a good find and I will try to look into it further.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Arrowwind this is a good read https://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/sick3.html
\n
\nIm speaking from experience as much as research , 10 years ago I was diagnosed with osteoporosis, they told me at age 50 I had the bones of a 90 year old and needed to be medicated immediately.
\nnot knowing any better I went on actonel, fortunately I wasnt on it long enough for it to do damage to me (I hope) I had side effects of flu like symptoms and depression, the endocrinologist prescribed zoloft
\n
\nthe first thing the pharmacist did was show me a long list of side effects of zoloft, it was then my BS radar kicked in ..for every side effect the drugs have they chase it with another drug and another ...thats so lucrative for the pharma companies
\nI took myself of actonel and never looked back
\n
\nit wasnt long after that I saw on the news ..a young mother had been prescribed zoloft for post natal depression, the side effect for her was death, yes it is uncommon thats why it made the news but thats cold comfort for her family and children.
\nthe doctors are playing Russian roulette with peoples lives and rarely are held accountable\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Hubby was prescribed Zoloft once, he took one and flushed the rest down the toilet, said it made him feel as if he was going to go off his head, and that was only one pill.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n I can\'t believe there aren\'t drug commercials in Norway, I wish it were that way here. Drug commercials make up about 25% of all our commercials.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n I was shocked to find out that there are adverts for prescription drugs in the US! I was looking up websites on Tamiflu and found their commercial site. It\'s aimed at the public and lists loads of extremely vague and dubious claims - with a picture of a ticking clock to scare people into taking it!
\n
\nThe single shocking fact that there are adverts for prescription drugs should be enough to prove to anyone that the industry and its government servants are ruled by greed and power, not reason or compassion.
\n
\nOn the other hand, because corporate medicine in the UK is promoted entirely by the State and insurance companies and mass media commentators, the corporations can appear to distance themselves from it, which makes it look more rational and objective. Very clever marketing.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n And did you notice all the side effects listed at the end of the commercial? It sounds shocking and some of the side effects are horrible. The reasoning behind this is that if the public hears the side effects they will think that it\'s not so bad because the drug companies are being open about it, and that if they hear them enough they will sound normal. The old propaganda tactic of repeating something enough until it either becomes truth or seems normal.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Incentives are also offered to drug store employees for meeting flu shot quotas\r\n

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\r\n \r\n And I believe the Dr\'s here get $60 for each flu shot they give,and we know for sure that the pharmaceuticle companies here give cars and holidays to push their wares, as was in a waiting room and overheard a drug sales rep saying that she wants to talk to Dr so and so about his holiday.\r\n

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\r\n \r\n Not only gift incentives but when I worked in a step down ICU unit they would send in drug reps to meet with the docs,,, they were all very well stacked blonde and unusually attractive women.. \r\n

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