I have been learning much since joining Nat Med site. For a little background, I have been seeing a lyme disease dr. who has been treating me with antibiotics and numerous supplements for a couple years. Lately, I've been noticing certain finger joints have been looking like they have calcification deposits forming. After reading the info about magnesium, I decided to change my magnesium supplement from magnesium oxide (oxypowder) to some of the other recommended forms to see if there was any change (Magnesium chloride, citrate, chelate). I stopped using my calcium/magnesium supplement thinking the calcium wasn't helpful after reading some of the posts.
At first, I started using mag citrate, 1 in the morning & 1 in the evening & continued my mag oxide @1350 mg. When I found my bowl movements were loose, I discontinued the oxide & increased the citrate to 400mg 2x a day for 1 week. At this dosage, I began having heart palpitations, fatigue, & extreme muscle, neck and joint pain.
I changed this dosage back to 2 a day and added 400 mg mag chelate 2x a day. Heart palpitations & joints are better but not feeling 100%. I've also started using Mag chloride in pills & in the Ancient Minerals bath flakes but no noticeable change. I am ready to just go back to my original supplements.
My thoughts are since I was feeling better using the oxypowder along with betaine HCL, was the betaine HCL allowing me to have better absorption than using mag oxide alone?
I have been seeing a lyme disease dr. who has been treating me with antibiotics and numerous supplements for a couple years.
This statement concerns me.
Taking antibiotics long term is not a good idea. They will kill off all the good bacteria in the intestines which will lead to a yeast overgrowth, and serious health issues.
I would suggest taking some good natural antibiotics, such as garlic, colloidal silver, coconut oil, and grapefruit seed extract, along with a good probiotic to rebuild the good gut bacteria.
As far as magnesium goes, I would suggest sticking with the citrate since it is easily absorbed by the body. I would also suggest green leafy vegetables (or juice) that are high in chlorophyll.
I would also suggest vitamin C in divided doses.
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Let Food Be Your Medicine And Medicine Be Your Food.(Hippocrates)
I have not been happy taking antibiotics for so long but my Lyme dr. has been very good with prescribing additional supplements. She has me on high doses of probiotics and she also has me on 1000mg vit c 2x/day. I had taken garlic & coconut oil on my own in the past but it didn't help my symptoms. I had many co-infections (babesia, bartonella) which she had to treat as well. It took almost 2 years to finally get rid of the babesia. I suspect I have had Lyme disease since I was a teenager for close to 20 years which is why treatment is taking so long. I can't tell you how difficult this road has been.
As for the magnesium, it just seems like I was feeling so much better using the oxypowder-magnesium oxide along with the betaine hcl than I do with the citrate. I have been battling with very loose bowels since changing which hasn't helped either. What I hoped when changing the supplements was that the calcium deposits(?) in my finger joints would get better but with the way I've been feeling, I'm not so sure. I just can't understand why I feel so much worse after changing to the citrate and chelate forms of magnesium if they are supposed to be more easily absorbed. Do you think taking away the calcium supplements had anything to do with it?
If this is straight ascorbic acid, this could cause loose bowels, however, should not be a problem if this is a buffered form of C, such as calcium ascorbate, just check the container~it will tell you...
And if this indeed is a buffered form of C, I would suggest upping the dose to 4000 mg in divided doses throughout the day, and going eventually up to 10,000 mg per day. This higher dose will kill pathogens in the body, especially viruses. I would also suggest that you never stop taking vitamin C.(or probiotics)
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I just can't understand why I feel so much worse after changing to the citrate and chelate forms of magnesium if they are supposed to be more easily absorbed. Do you think taking away the calcium supplements had anything to do with it?
Possibly, since magnesium regulates calcium, however, this may take some time to create a proper balance. Potassium is also required.
By changing from Mag Oxide to Mag Citrate and Mag Chelate you are upping the dosage of ELEMENTAL Mag (which is the active part of the dose) a whole lot and thats probably the reason for your symptoms.
The different types of Mag have different levels of elemental Mag and different absorption levels. ie Mag oxide whilst having 60% elemental Mag only has a 4% absorption rate, so from a 500mg dose you would only absorb 12mg of elemental Mag.
Mag Citrate has a 16% elemental level but a high absorption level so you could get up to 80mg of elemental Mag from a 500mg dose.
Mag Chelate is even higher at 20% elemental Mag and high absorption rate so you could have up to 100mg of elemental Mag from a 500mg dose.
People with Lyme should be careful with Magnesium. I think the jury is still out on whether it actually protects the lyme biofilm or not.
Its always advisable when upping Magnesium(whatever your state of health), to get your kidney function tested by your doctor first, particularly as you get older.
If this is straight ascorbic acid, this could cause loose bowels, however, should not be a problem if this is a buffered form of C, such as calcium ascorbate, just check the container~it will tell you...
Thanks for your reply Pinballdoctor. The vitamin c that I am taking says that it is ascorbic acid. It does not say buffered on it. I had been taking this while I was taking mag oxide without any problem. From what I've read, wouldn't magnesium oxide cause more problems with loose bowels than other forms?
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Possibly, since magnesium regulates calcium, however, this may take some time to create a proper balance.
So do you think taking away the calcium was a good thing? I hope I'm not sounding dense, I've just started learning about the effects of magnesium the past couple of weeks since joining this site. I read on another post that calcium could end up settling in joints, etc and isn't as important to supplement as magnesium since you can get what you need from food. Since nodules have been forming on my finger joints, I figured it was from calcification.
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Potassium is also required
This is one thing my Lyme dr. has not put me on. What amount would you recommend that I take and should I have my levels checked regularly?
By changing from Mag Oxide to Mag Citrate and Mag Chelate you are upping the dosage of ELEMENTAL Mag (which is the active part of the dose) a whole lot and thats probably the reason for your symptoms.
Hi Liverock,
As I mentioned to Pinballdoctor, I am still trying to understand the relationship of magnesium on the body. Unless I am misunderstanding, I thought magnesium eases arthritic symptoms because it's calming and helps relax tightness of joints, etc. Does upping the dosage to higher elemental mag cause the same symptoms as magnesium deficiency? Is it possible that since I was taking betaine hcl with the mag oxide that it improved the absorption so that I was getting more than 4%? I was having severe joint pain & heart palpitations when I stopped the mag oxide and switched over to chelated mag & mag citrate. (I should have mentioned that I had very little pain while on mag oxide and seldom had any palpitations since my dr. has been treating my lyme.)
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Its always advisable when upping Magnesium(whatever your state of health), to get your kidney function tested by your doctor first, particularly as you get older.
My Lyme dr. has been testing my blood every month to make sure kidneys, liver, etc. are ok.
I appreciate the info you sent. I actually already downloaded the 1 Lyme disease article which was recommended to do. The Dr. that I am seeing is Lyme literate. She has used much of the medicines and herbs suggested over the past 2 years. I have not had any IV treatments.
I can completely understand your friends feelings about getting tired of the treatments. Herxing is the worst! Some of mine have lasted several weeks. I am currently taking several Byron White microbial defense solutions along with Rifampin and Minocycline. She used Mepron (very expensive) & Doxy to get rid of Babesia along with A-Bab Byron White formula. I wanted to talk to my Dr. about this article during my last visit but I couldn't remember the details of it. (Brain has been seriously affected)
Aside form the joint & muscle pain, neurologically, I have been very affected. Memory, sleep, restless leg type sensations everywhere (not just in my legs). Things are much better than when I first began treatment but I still have a ways to go.
The article talks about taking mag aspartate. How is this different than mag citrate or even mag malate (which I haven't yet had the chance to try)?
One other question I would like to ask is it's been said that you should take no more than 400 mg of magnesium at one time. Divided dosages are best. Is this referring to plain magnesium or elemental? I assume this is plain since all types of magnesium have different levels of elemental mag and is absorbed at different rates. With that being considered, would that amount need to be adjusted to each type of magnesium? I find it very hard to take as much as I seem to need, even at divided doses. (The Alta mag chloride is over 500 mg for one tablet.)
If you are taking betaine hydrochloride I a ssume you have got a stomach/digestive problem which means there is no real way to know how much you are actually absorbing from the various types of Mag you have tried.
You should be aware that increasing magnesium levels in anybody with increased body toxins will cause a detox reaction mostly from loosing heavy metals and if your liver and gall bladder are not up to handling it you could get them recirculating, which can cause some disturbing symptoms.
Magnesium also interacts with Mino and Doxy antibiotics and you should allow a 2 hour interval between taking them. Magnesium taken orally is also better taken in split doses throughout the day
This study highlights the effect of transdermal mag and shows it increases Mag levels quicker than using oral supplements and also balances the
Ca/Mag ratio as well as the loosing of heavy metals . The chloride in the Mag Chloride may also help creating Betaine HCL.
The article you sent is very interesting. I would love to have my Dr. order a script for magnesium hair analysis but in order to get a tsp. amount of new hair growth, I think that would leave a pretty big chunk out of my head! I like my hair . I'm sure after learning as much as I have (thanks to this site) that I am deficient.
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Originally Posted by liverock
If you are taking betaine hydrochloride I a ssume you have got a stomach/digestive problem which means there is no real way to know how much you are actually absorbing from the various types of Mag you have tried.
I don't always have problems with digestion but sometimes if I drink a lot of water after meals or take supplements after a big meal (again a lot of water), things seem to sit in my stomach like a rock. I actually read somewhere that taking Betaine Hcl with magnesium will help you absorb magnesium better. (It may have been on the actual oxypowder site.) I take one with my morning supplements & one with my evening supplements just because I figure it can't hurt with digestion.
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You should be aware that increasing magnesium levels in anybody with increased body toxins will cause a detox reaction mostly from loosing heavy metals and if your liver and gall bladder are not up to handling it you could get them recirculating, which can cause some disturbing symptoms.
I did not know magnesium did this before reading the article...Aside from the herx, is'nt that a good thing? My Lyme Dr. has been constantly monitoring my liver and has me taking Milk Thistle daily. Blood tests always show healthy liver results.
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Magnesium also interacts with Mino and Doxy antibiotics and you should allow a 2 hour interval between taking them. Magnesium taken orally is also better taken in split doses throughout the day
I have been making sure my Minocyclene (& Doxy while & was on it) were apart by 2hrs from Mag. I have been trying to split the doses of Magnesium but it is very difficult. I feel like I'm constantly popping pills & checking the clock. If I take 4 doses a day, that's a whole day every 2 hours not counting having to keep them separate from my antibiotics!
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This study highlights the effect of transdermal mag and shows it increases Mag levels quicker than using oral supplements and also balances the Ca/Mag ratio as well as the loosing of heavy metals . The chloride in the Mag Chloride may also help creating Betaine HCL.
After reading some of the posts about Ancient Minerals, I bought some but mistakenly got the bath flakes. I added a few Tbs. to a 16oz spray bottle and spray that on morning & night but don't know if it's as good as the other stuff. Eventually, I would like to get the full strength mag chloride but would like to wait till I have to order my next round of supplements. By the way, the article talked about foot soaks as well as spraying on the mag chloride. Do you think it would be ok to reuse the foot bath water or would the magnesium be pulled out? If so, how many times could it be reused? I imagine that could get expensive doing soaks everyday.
Whether from heavy metals or from my body adjusting to the magnesium, all I can say is since switching over to the other forms of magnesium (rather than the oxide) my symptoms have been pretty intense. If I hadn't known, I would have assumed the meds that the Dr. prescribed caused the herx since the previous month I had a major one after beginning the Rifampin.
It is not unusual for Magnesium to make you feel worse, when you start using it, when you have Lyme. I would guess that the reason the Magnesium Oxide did not have that effect was because you were absorbing little to none of it.
Lyme is unusual in that it feeds off Magnesium instead of Iron like other bacteria. So taking a form that actually is absorbed also increases Lyme activity, especially when you just start using it. Lyme will starve your body of Mg so you really have no choice but to supplement for your own good. but you also help out the Lyme in the process. A double edge sword, but I think you were correct about the joint problem being somewhat related to lack of Mg. Lyme itself ravages the joints also, so more than one thing is likely at work.
Your doctor should know all of this.
From my own experience, it seems that when you start taking Mg it makes conditions optimal for the bacteria and it starts to come out of cyst form into the spirochete form. The active spirochete form is easier to kill, and cyst form is almost impossible to kill, so that is not all bad. But, the spirochete form also causes a lot more symptoms, so there is that double edge sword again.
I have treated my wife's Lyme, Babesia and Bart for several years using primarily Rife frequency treatments. She is no longer being treated, but she likely does have remnants of the Bart and Lyme left. It does not have much effect on her now. Somehow it is weakened and her body is able to keep it in check. I suspect it will take off again if she ever has a serious injury or illness.
She also had quite a negative response to Mg when she started using it. this does go away after a while, but only if you are consistently killing the Lyme as it activates.
Good Luck
Dan
Last edited by D Bergy; 06-01-2012 at 10:03 PM.
Reason: spelling
I appreciate the info you sent. I actually already downloaded the 1 Lyme disease article which was recommended to do. The Dr. that I am seeing is Lyme literate. She has used much of the medicines and herbs suggested over the past 2 years. I have not had any IV treatments.
?
My friend is cured now of a 25 year plus lyme. I can't stress enough the importance of the enzymes to break open the cysts. If you use antibioitcs or Colloidal silver and samanto, it may not make much difference for it is key to break open the cyst so your antimicrobial can get at it.... But the lyme will build resistance to antibiotics, not colloidal silver, and not mms.
Antibiotics are dangerous and it sometimes gets to the point with lyme people where the drugs make their condition so much worse, causing chronic candida and digestive issues. It can and will ruin your gut.
My friend is cured now of a 25 year plus lyme. I can't stress enough the importance of the enzymes to break open the cysts. If you use antibioitcs or Colloidal silver and samanto, it may not make much difference for it is key to break open the cyst so your antimicrobial can get at it.... But the lyme will build resistance to antibiotics, not colloidal silver, and not mms.
Arrowwind,
I would like to mention the enzymes to my Dr. at my next visit. I know she has talked about the cysts and has certain steps to her treatment but I don't ask as many questions as I'd like because I try to limit the time I spend with her since the visits are so expensive. It's not uncommon for me to spend $400 and more each month (not counting the supplements). This is a very expensive disease to have as insurance companies will not cover Lyme literate drs. Neither do they cover the microbial solutions which are very expensive not counting the needed herbs and supplements. Even my life insurance co. would not give me a new plan even though my blood tests they took were fantastic! They insured my husband whose results weren't as good though with no problems. Once they found out I was being treated for lyme they rejected me. They said I had to be declared "cured" for a year by a dr. before they would give me a new plan.
Another look at magnesium
. I'm sure after learning as much as I have (thanks to this site) that I am deficient.
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