I would slow down, or you may have explosive D in a couple days.

Yeah I don't see how an operation can fix an infection. I don't know what else to tell you Im as lost as everyone else here. I just wish I knew exactly what was wrong so I could start fixing it.

Do you guys have a confirmed prostatitis? Meaning, did you guys have an ultrasound of your prostate? My urologist had told me that I had prostatitis but never did any tests, he just base it off my symptoms. My last doctor did an ultrasound to prove that it wasn't prostatitis, but rather Epididymitis due to varices, so far that's the only thing that has helped with the diagnosis. My prostate looks normal in the ultrasound. My urine and blood tests were normal. Doctor said that the varices are causing excessive heat in my testicles and is causing a chain reaction, resulting in the scrotum problems and other complications. He said that once the varices are removed, the problem will resolve. Just a thing to think about. I'm going to try the meds he gave me and if they work then I'm going to go through the surgery.

Interesting.. I never had an ultrasound of my prostate.. but immediately preceding my symptoms I got hit in the balls and seemed to notice a swelling of the epididymis.. although it wasnt painful or anything..

BUT just this morning I woke up with very painful epididymis and went to the doctor and it was confirmed it was inflamed..

I also have a large vericocele on my left side.. had it since I was a teenager.. and I have a sort of low sperm count..

Ive heard a lot of people complain of problems resulting from vericoceles.. but it seems the operation doesn't always resolve them so.. I don't know what to believe.

Doctor seems pretty confident that this procedure will work, he said he's had a lot of cases like this which resulted with full resolution after the surgery. I'm gonna get a second opinion before I go along with the procedure.

My story and treatment experiences

It all started in 2005 and I was given amoxicillin. Because it never improved my symptoms I thought it wasn't infection. BAD MISTAKE! > 2 years later I remember when I first tried trimethoprim I mostly had epididymitis symptoms, but it was probably refered pain from the prostate after looking back, I just didn't know it at the time. Anyway, when I took trimethoprim in 2007 I experienced complete (100%) relief from every symptom within 2-3 days. This was the fastest and most powerful effect that I have had during my 6 years experience with prostatitis. It was my very first treatment aimed at treating the infection. Other antibiotics I took for other reasons like amoxicillin and flagyl did no affect symptoms. Only did amox help burning urination and resolve any bladder issues without touching the prostate or testicle pain. It seems that in a lot of cases first treatment is usually the most succesful. So upon taking only 2 weeks of trimethoprim I had 3 months of complete relief after already suffering for 2 years (approx). I then took cipro the same year and had a severe reaction from it which affected my tendons, nerves and caused lots of issues. I can't ever take quinolones! (I only managed 3 doses and it screwd up my life for years).

Some recent things I found: In 2003 I was treated for an enterococcus kidney infection. I have the report from the doctor here with me and it says they found >100,000 cfu/ml and was sensitive to 3 antibiotics: ampicillin, vancomycin and nitrofurantoin. I wonder if this infection went to my prostate but remained asymptomatic until 2005 when epdidiymitis began. Although, treatment with cranberry and D mannose which only affects E coli has a dramatic impact on my symptoms. Elimination of burning and lowered frequency. Non-bacterial prostatitis these would have no effect.

The second thing that I found was in august 2005 after complaints of a bad chest when exercising I was started on trimethoprim (I have the printed reports here), which I stopped taking only after 3 days. It was only in October 2005 that my nightmare began. Did the trimethoprim stir things up??? It makes me wonder ;-) I think it might have.

Another thing. Before all this started I noticed very intense short lasting pains in the prostate which would last about 5-10 seconds. They would be infrequent, but I think I might have had them for years... Meaning the infection might have been around longer than I realised.

Do I believe this is an infectious disease

I believe that most prostatitis will be found to be caused by an infection. Negative cultures does not mean there are no bacteria present. Actually, bacteria in biofilms will cause prostate secretions to be negative. Culturing techniques are also another problem. There are other diseases out there that are incredibly difficult to treat. Chronic sinusitis is one of them, which you can throw lots of antibiotics at and it will keep coming back. Why? Well it has been found that upto 80% of people that undergo surgery for sinusitis will have biofilm related infections. Biofilms can be upto 1000x more resistant to antibiotics and they are a huge problem. The bacteria involved in most prostatitis are usually medium - strong inducers of biofilms according to one study. The longer the infection is present, the better and more organised and deeper these biofilms. They evade your immune system, they are the reason for flare ups and they stop antibiotics from killing the bacteria within. When you're taking antibiotics you're killing the free floating bacteria, but not the ones in the biofilm. This would probably account for why some people get better initially, but then relapse. Biofilms, I highly recommend you start resesarching them as they are involved in several chronic infectious diseases. Biofilms also go through stages, the last stage being dispersal. Chunks of the biofilm break off and release billions of bacteria to infect new tissue. Ok, so now we understand a little bit about biofilms... what can we do to make the immune system attack them, and make the antibiotics more effective again?

1. Find a treatment that works!!! (an antibiotic)
2. Find compounds to slow the formation or stop biofilms from forming. Also enzymes or compounds that will break up mature biofilms.
3. Compounds that enhance the immune system.

Understanding the process of recovery

Why is it that people think that because you 'flare up', it means that what you're doing is bad? No, this is not always the case. When you have an infection that is 'hiding' from the immune system, and you uncover that infection, your immune system is going to be activated. When in a biofilm, your immune system cannot sense the infection properly, and thus remains in a low level state with low grade chronic inflammation. When people say that quercetin and bromelain has an effect, then it must be nonbacterial, no this is wrong. Quercetin is an inhibitor of bacteria, it inhibits bacterial toxins, it is a powerful at regualting the immune system to reduce inflammatory response. Any antioxidants is going to improve resistance to infection related damage to cells. Which is why there an improvement, but it's usually not 100% because the cause is still not removed. It's like that study I posted above which shows that a plant compound reduces damage in infectious prostatitis. Like Quercetin.

People that are treated for chronic infections usually have cycles of improvement, with worsening, then improvement and then worsening. Each time being less severe than the time before. This seems to be the general pattern. If you read "Immunopathology (marshall protocol)" you'll understand a little more.

You have to turn the balance in favour of the host. Chronic infections will take a long time to heal from, months, in diseases like Lyme... years. It's a hard concept for some people to understand that worsening means winning the battle. In case of acute infections, it's different, worsening is a bad sign. In case of chronic infections that 'hide' from the immune system, exposing these bugs which do result in an immune response is a good thing.

Things you could try:

Antibiotics
Doxycycline 2-3 months followed by trimethoprim for an additional 2 months. (apply only if both result in symptom relief).

Bromelain Take with the antibiotics to enhance absorption. Studies show that bromelain enhances antibiotics to clear infection. Tissue concentrations of various antibiotics such as tetracycline can be significantly higher. It's believed that bromelain somehow allows tissues to become more permeable? Bromelain also breaks down fibrin and this is an essential part of biofilms. When taking bromelain you might get an flare up of symptoms because bromlain is causing the immune system to become aware of the bacteria that were inside the biofilm.

""Bromelain, in combination with trypsin (another enzyme), may enhance the effect of antibiotics in people with a urinary tract infection (UTI). In a double-blind study, 100% of people who received bromelain/trypsin in combination with antibiotics had a resolution of their UTIs, compared to only 46% of those who received antibiotics alone."
Mori S, Ojima Y, Hirose T, et al. The clinical effect of proteolytic enzyme containing bromelain and trypsin on urinary tract infection evaluated by double blind method. Acta Obstet GynaecolJpn 1972;19:147-53.

I highly recommend reading this: https://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=959230 it contains lots of scientific references.

Other sysemtic enzymes such as nattokinase, serrapeptase (google these). These are very important to include when trying to treat infections with or without antibiotics

[Studies on the distributions of antibiotics in the oral tissues: Experimental staphylococcal infection in rats, and effect of serratiopeptidase on the distributions of antibiotics (author's transl)] PMID: 7001087

Augmentation by serrapeptase of tissue permeation by cefotiam PMID: 3525882

(you can google that PMID and the study will show.)


Quercetin - A powerful anti-inflammatory and has been established as providing good relief for those who have prostatitis. The mechanisms by how it works are still not clear in cases of prostatitis. Quercetin also helps boost the immune system under stress.

Lactoferrin (stops new biofilms from forming and is an important part ofthe innate immune system. Elevated levels of lactoferrin are found in prostatitis and the elevated levels are caused bt infection. Read on Lactoferrin and biofilms. Instant whey protein concentrate has lactoferrin. Whey protein is generally good for the immune system.

Stretching and yoga. For some people, tightening of the muscles might be an issue. I had this early on in 2009 and it felt like I had a golf ball in there. I've never had this sensation since working on this.

Probiotics - prevent yeast infection and stop the overgrowth of bad bacteria

Allicin. It is the main active component of galric and does work in-vivo, but because of the concentrations reaching the site of infection, it could take months to work. Initial improvement is to be expected but don't be surprised if symptoms come back. As I've already explained, allicin is able to block quorum sensing and allow the immune system to 'detect' the bacteria and fight it. You should expect a cycle of improvement and worsening. Being consistent is the main thing. No need to go overbored either, I think 4-5 capsules per day max should be enough. Allicin with antibiotics is likely to work a lot better though... It was only when I added allicin that I noticed the biggest improvement.

From the studies below you can see how garlic extract work to kill infections. It not only kills bacteria, it also allow the immune system to detect the bacteria so it can attack it. This does result in a higher degree of inflammation at first (consistent with what I'm saying about getting worse before you get better). You can see images of how in the persence of garlic the white blood cells are able to penetrate the biofilm.

Garlic blocks quorum sensing and attenuates the virulence of Pseudomonas aeruginosa.
Abstract
Oral treatment with garlic significantly lowered renal bacterial counts and protected mouse kidney from tissue destruction. In vitro data showed decreased elaboration of virulence factors and reduced production of quorum-sensing signals by P. aeruginosa in the presence of fresh garlic extract. The results suggest that decreased virulence of P. aeruginosa in garlic-fed mice can be attributed to the quorum-sensing inhibitory property of garlic. This might have contributed towards reduced production of virulence factors, as seen in vitro.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19878318
Garlic blocks quorum sensing and promotes rapid clearing of pulmonary Pseudomonas aeruginosa infections

The opportunistic human pathogen Pseudomonas aeruginosa is the predominant micro-organism of chronic lung infections in cystic fibrosis patients. P. aeruginosa colonizes the lungs by forming biofilm microcolonies throughout the lung. Quorum sensing (QS) renders the biofilm bacteria highly tolerant to otherwise lethal doses of antibiotics, and protects against the bactericidal activity of polymorphonuclear leukocytes (PMNs). It has been previously demonstrated that QS is inhibited by garlic extract. In this study, the synergistic effects of garlic and tobramycin, and PMNs activities have been evaluated. P. aeruginosa was grown in vitro in continuous-culture once-through flow chambers with and without garlic extract. The garlic-treated biofilms were susceptible to both tobramycin and PMN grazing. Furthermore, the PMNs showed an increase in respiratory burst activation, when incubated with the garlic-treated biofilm. Garlic extract was administered as treatment for a mouse pulmonary infection model. Mice were treated with garlic extract or placebo for 7 days, with the initial 2 days being prophylactic before P. aeruginosa was instilled in the left lung of the mice. Bacteriology, mortality, histopathology and cytokine production were used as indicators. The garlic treatment initially provoked a higher degree of inflammation, and significantly improved clearing of the infecting bacteria. The results indicate that a QS-inhibitory extract of garlic renders P. aeruginosa sensitive to tobramycin, respiratory burst and phagocytosis by PMNs, as well as leading to an improved outcome of pulmonary infections.
https://mic.sgmjournals.org/cgi/conte...ct/151/12/3873

Other things Saw Palmetto, Curcumin, Green tea extract (EGCG), Lycopene, Ginger, lots of sleep (try melatonin if sleep is bad), eat healthy (green smoothies are good!).

Expect recovery to be up an down. I spoke to a friend who has prostatitis and he noticed worsening of symptoms after adding systemic enzymes, especially bromelain. This was expected because of how it works. And yes, they are bioavailable when taken on an empty stomach.


Start researching. Biofilms.


Edit: You might notice some things during treatment phase:

- You start to improve and then you relapse
- Your semen might turn slightly yellow and thicker with what looks like gel like substance
- Prostate might temporarily swell for a few days and then settle
- low fever and/or nightsweats every 2-4 weeks that will last a few days
- You start having more bad days as first and then more good days near the end of treatment

During the healing stages you might find you notice some things like:
- Morning erections come back
- Stronger erections
- Libido comes back
- Better ejaculation
- No toilet trips in the night
- Stronger uinary stream
- Sit for longer periods (but don't push it! The prostate can take months to heal)
- Wondering why haven't I needed to take a pee for the last 5 hours? lol!
- An itiching sensation within the penis and prostate (like when a cut is healing on your skin)
- White / clear ejaculations rather than yellow
- No pain
- Brain fog you never realised you had goes away.

If you're having flare ups during treatment, try not to look at it as a bad thing unless it's not settling after 1-2 weeks. The whole idea with fighting biofilm infections is to allow your immune system to detect the bacteria, which will cause increased symptoms for a period of time. The guys here that I would want to encourage try antibiotic treatment again are those with previous documented UTI's.

I've forgotten about vitamin D3! Very important for your immune system. When you take vitamin D supplements or get sun, it upregulates various antimicrobrial peptides like LL37 which can bacteria involved in urinary infections. I did notice years back that when I took 150,000IU per day for about 3 days in a row I would get a huge flare up. It could be because my immune system was attacking the infection. See this study:

Human Host Defense Peptide LL-37 Prevents Bacterial Biofilm Formation
https://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/76/9/4176
he ability to form biofilms is a critical factor in chronic infections by Pseudomonas aeruginosa and has made this bacterium a model organism with respect to biofilm formation. This study describes a new, previously unrecognized role for the human cationic host defense peptide LL-37. In addition to its key role in modulating the innate immune response and weak antimicrobial activity, LL-37 potently inhibited the formation of bacterial biofilms in vitro. This occurred at the very low and physiologically meaningful concentration of 0.5 �g/ml, far below that required to kill or inhibit growth (MIC = 64 �g/ml). LL-37 also affected existing, pregrown P. aeruginosa biofilms. Similar results were obtained using the bovine neutrophil peptide indolicidin, but no inhibitory effect on biofilm formation was detected using subinhibitory concentrations of the mouse peptide CRAMP, which shares 67% identity with LL-37, polymyxin B, or the bovine bactenecin homolog Bac2A. Using microarrays and follow-up studies, we were able to demonstrate that LL-37 affected biofilm formation by decreasing the attachment of bacterial cells, stimulating twitching motility, and influencing two major quorum sensing systems (Las and Rhl), leading to the downregulation of genes essential for biofilm development.


Here is the study I mentioned earlier showing 80% of chronic sinusitis patients have biofilm related infections which are almost impossible to deal with, with antibiotics alone.

Bacterial biofilms in surgical specimens of patients with chronic rhinosinusitis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15805862


I cannot believe the amount of ignorance and huge lack of communication between the medical profession and researchers. Prostatitis should and will one day be defined as a chronic bacterial disease, at least in the majority of cases.

Anyone tried this antibiotic???
https://www.rxlist.com/geocillin-drug.htm

Bacterial prostatitis: treatment with carbenicillin indanyl sodium.
Mobley DF.
Abstract

The efficacy and safety of carbenicillin indanyl sodium were evaluated in 16 patients with acute or chronic bacterial prostatitis. Each patient received carbenicillin indanyl sodium (Geocillin) tablets, at a dosage of two 500 mg tablets (each tablet equivalent to 382 mg of carbenicillin) four times daily for either 14 days (acute patients) or 28 days (chronic patients). Clinical and bacteriologic success rates, based upon 4 week post therapy followup, were 93 per cent and 75 per cent respectively. There were no adverse reactions. Results with cephalexin in a concurrently treated alternative therapy group were generally unsatisfactory. Further evaluations of carbenicillin indanyl sodium in this treatment of resistant populations are clearly warranted.

and couple other studies I found on antibiotics. In one of the abstracts it's not that clear, but from what I understand it's saying that although effectiveness was unsatisfactory during therapy, all symptoms disappeared after antibiotic therapy was ended anyway. (maybe inflammation took a while to go away). Minocycline seems to be a better choice for prostatitis.

Treatment of bacterial prostatitis. Comparison of cephalexin and minocycline.
Paulson DF, Zinner NR, Resnick MI, Childs SJ, Love T, Madsen PO.
Abstract

The relative safety and efficacy of minocycline and cephalexin were examined in patients with acute or chronic prostatitis. The multicenter study was of single-blind, parallel-group design. Forty-two men received minocycline (200-mg initial dose followed by 100 mg twice daily) and 44, cephalexin (500 mg four times daily); each antibiotic was administered orally for four weeks. A follow-up period of patient assessment extended for an additional six weeks. Evaluable data were available for 20 minocycline-treated patients and for 24 cephalexin-treated patients. Clinical cure or improvement without recurrence was seen in 65 per cent of the patients who received minocycline and in 46 per cent of those given cephalexin. Bacteriologic cure without relapse or reinfection occurred in 45 per cent of the minocycline-treated men and in 21 per cent of the cephalexin-treated men. Serious adverse clinical experiences were not encountered in either treatment group. Although several factors, mainly the small number of patients, precluded a statistical analysis of comparative efficacy, it was evident that more patients in the minocycline-treated group had both clinical and bacteriologic cures (35%) than did those in the cephalexin-treated group (21%).

Treatment of chronic prostatitis. Comparison of Minocycline and Doxycycline.
Brannan W.
Abstract
The results of minocycline and doxycycline therapy in 41 patients with chronic prostatitis and minocycline therapy in 6 patients with acute prostatitis were evaluated. In the comparative study of chronic prostatitis, minocycline and doxycycline were given on the same dosage schedule, milligram for milligram: a loading dose of 200 mg. followed by 100 mg. twicd daily. Over-all clinical responses to therapy with either agent were generally satisfactory, and no statistically significant difference was demonstrable in this regard. In the group with chronic prostatitis treated wtih minocycline, however, all symptoms manifested before therapy had disappeared after therapy even where over-all results had been judged unsatisfactory. This was not true of the group with chronic prostatitis treated with doxycycline. Symptoms in 6 patients persisted after therapy had been terminated. Here the difference in results between the two groups was found to be statistically significant. A review of symptoms two to eight weeks after therapy revealed no significant difference between the two groups. After two years only 6 patients in the entire group with chronic prostatitis had returned with recurrent problems: 3 of these patients had been treated with minocycline and 3 had been treated with doxycycline. Results of therapy in the small series of patients with acute prostatitis treated with minocycline were generally satisfactory


I highly recommend reading this pdf. It's about antibiotics and penetration into the prostate.
https://home.swipnet.se/isop/Penetration.pdf

:-D

I finally found the biofilm article I was looking for:
https://www.antimicrobe.org/history/M...20defenses.pdf

It's worth spending some time to do your own research on infectious disease. I think there are ways to beat this disease but it's not monotherapy. Get a good strategy in place, similar to what I did, and then go for it. Anyway I think I've shared everything that I wanted. If you have any questions just let me know and I can answer. Good luck!

Great posts again Iwillbecured been on doxy now for 6 weeks last night I did not get up to the toilet during the night but its still there going to see if my gp will give me trimethoprim.You must have had the same infection I have.
Will may be try allicin along with them.
I am doing prostate massages wich I think is also helping.

I think that it's definitely worth adding a few things to your regimen. You can take all these together for an added effect:

Every 12 hours:
Doxycycline 100mg
Quercetin 500mg
Bromelain 200mg
AllicinMax 2 capsules
Drink a cup of green tea

Take this on an empty stomach! Adding the other enzymes might be worthwhile. Just take a look at the names and you can surely do your own research. :-)

I just wanted to mention something else. I think the argument that antibiotics are working via an anti inflammatory effect in prostatitis is absolute rubbish. Antibiotics have a very weak anti-inflammatory effect, and even so, I've never had any kind of benefit from taking NSAIDs or other strong anti-inflammatory medications. It's like when the doctors used to prescribe me nasal steroid spray for my nose, it didn't used to solve the problem, and I think even made it worse. What cured my sinusitis? Antibiotics + Allicin. I forgot to mention that ;p I also cured my chronic sinusitis with this method ;-) Also remember, even in proven cases where bacteria are present, the cure rate for antibiotics like trimethoprim and doxycycline are only like 35-65%.

@lovelife. If you get these enzymes and allicin, let me know how it goes. Some people on the other forum were taking insane amounts of allicin hoping to get rid of it quickly... it doesn't seem to work. Also if you add these supplements and get a flare, don't be scared... it's very possible that what is happening is you are allowing your immune system and the antibiotics to get to the hidden bacteria that are deep within these biofilms. It's probably a good sign if anything. :-)

can you describe what you get from taking antibiotics? Does it lower frequency? Eliminate burning? Lower pain level? Does the effect of the antibiotic level off after a certain point and then progress is slow? Do you have any relief from taking cranberry juice or D mannose like I did?

I was one of them with the allicin but I will go back to it and try the few things together.
It was the doctor at the gum clinic who got me into this by not screening my infection before it got into my prostate years ago.I remeber the day it went into into it it was the most horrible thing I ever felt .

I did get some releif with allicin but after a time it semed to level off .Same thing with doxy.
I once got rid of it for one day so I know the feeling you talk about it was in 1997.
I have only started researching this since January and I have had this all this time.

Hey Lovelife. I think the main thing is to be consistent and very patient. There's reports that even when infection is eliminated the prostate can take 6 months or more to heal.

Am I alone here in that I also used to get night sweats and low grade fever during flare ups? Those symptoms aren't mentioned as part of nonbacterial prostatitis.